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* Portal * Search * Member List * Calendar * Help * MYCode Guide Hello There, Guest! Login Register Login Username: Password: Lost Password? Remember me Science Fiction and Fantasy Community Forums › Science Fiction and Fantasy Franchises › J.R.R. Tolkien and Middle-earth « Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... 138 Next » Saurons real name Thread Modes Saurons real name gzhindra Member Posts: 129 Threads: 18 Joined: Oct 2010 #1 July 19th, 2023, 05:54 AM In the story Sauron is just an elvish nick name. Otherwise he is known as the nameless one. Even the orcs simply refer to the "great eye" or "Lugburz (Barad Dur)". Sauron aimed to be lord of all Middle earth. Why did he not have an official name? After all in the story he already had a vast empire. Was there some kind of naming magic involved? The only similar thing i can think of, is that the Dwarves kept their true names secret. Although it is not stated why they were so secretive. Find Reply Alvin Eriol Posting Freak Posts: 2,642 Threads: 66 Joined: Feb 2003 #2 July 19th, 2023, 11:03 AM I don't think he was ever given a "real" name, not by JRRT. The "real" names of the Valar and the more prominent better-known Maiar were given them by the Elves of Aman they brought to live among them. This included Melkor because he was released in Aman on "parole" after his ages of imprisonment following the War of the Powers, and therefore interacted with the Elves, working his schemes, until he attacked. Sauron, OtoH, wasn't caught and brought to Aman but remained behind "minding the store" of Mel's old empire, so he became known in ME by Elvish cusswords and epithets such as "the Nameless" once the Elves and Men became aware of this distinct personage who was Morgoth's lieutenant. We've discussed this before, such as in this thread. Many Defeats & Many Fruitless Victories Memoirs Gateway For I was talking aloud to myself...the old...choose the wisest person present to speak to... Find Reply gzhindra Member Posts: 129 Threads: 18 Joined: Oct 2010 #3 July 19th, 2023, 03:23 PM Tolkien did not give Sauron's true name or an assumed name. But i wonder why Sauron did not announce an official name for his reign. instead he goes by unofficial names or nick names. It is a bit odd that there is no story reason for Sauron's lack of name. After all Sauron announced publically that hes back, when he reoccupied Barad Dur, but there is still no name. Other villains had official names such as Melkor, Gothmog, Smaug, Ancalagon the black, Glaurung etc. Find Reply turnipjuice Junior Member Posts: 14 Threads: 1 Joined: May 2023 #4 July 20th, 2023, 04:18 PM > (July 19th, 2023, 03:23 PM)gzhindra Wrote: Tolkien did not give Sauron's true > name or an assumed name. > > > But i wonder why Sauron did not announce an official name for his reign. > instead he goes by unofficial names or nick names. > It is a bit odd that there is no story reason for Sauron's lack of name. > > After all Sauron announced publically that hes back, when he reoccupied Barad > Dur, but there is still no name. > > Other villains had official names such as Melkor, Gothmog, Smaug, Ancalagon > the black, Glaurung etc. I think the closest we get to other names for Sauron include "Gorthaur" which I doubt he used in Valinor. More likely he was called that as one of Morgoth's chief lieutenants. Of course during the Second Age he named himself "Annatar" when he was convincing the Elves to help him with the rings of power. "Zigur" is another possible name though I don't think he ever called himself that. That one sounds more dwarvish or even orcish. Some of Christopher Tolkien's writings suggest he may have been called "Mairon" when he was a Maia of the folk of Aule. Find Reply Michael Super Moderator Posts: 16,073 Threads: 3,900 Joined: Feb 2003 #5 July 26th, 2023, 03:50 PM Among his followers he was known as Lugburz" (basically, "Dark Tower"). Aragorn said that Sauron didn't allow his followers to use his "real name" (when discussing the S-runes on the helmets of the Uruk-hai Boromir had killed). To Aragorn and others, the "real name" was Sauron (which Sauron might have found insulting). In one of his letters Tolkien said that Sauron claimed to be Morgoth returned (at the end of the Third Age). And on the basis of that, linguist David Salo suggested that Gothmog means "[Mor]goth['s] mouth/spokesman". However, I don't think Morgoth allowed his servants to call him that name, which was an insult devised by Feanor. So Tolkien's nomenclature for dark lords is a bit murky. Xenite.Org - Science Fiction and Fantasy Tolkien and Middle-earth Blog Michael Martinez Official Website and Personal Blog Website Find Reply Mordomin Master Enchanter Posts: 3,153 Threads: 326 Joined: Feb 2003 #6 July 28th, 2023, 11:19 AM Although the name does not appear in The Sil (or LotR or The Hobbit), the name 'Mairon' seems to have been (in HoMe) the original name for the Maia of Aule that we later came to know and love as 'Sauron'. Well, know, anyway... "Never ask an Elf for advice, for he will say both 'Yes' and 'No'." - Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion Find Reply gzhindra Member Posts: 129 Threads: 18 Joined: Oct 2010 #7 July 28th, 2023, 05:19 PM (This post was last modified: July 28th, 2023, 05:20 PM by gzhindra. Edit Reason: spelling ) Aragorn says at one point "neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken" Does Aragorn refer to Sauron, or another name? Still there is no story explanation why Sauron chooses to remain anonymous. After all real or even fantasy leaders usually have names, real or adopted names. Find Reply Mordomin Master Enchanter Posts: 3,153 Threads: 326 Joined: Feb 2003 #8 July 29th, 2023, 06:26 AM > (July 28th, 2023, 05:19 PM)gzhindra Wrote: Aragorn says at one point "neither > does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken" > Does Aragorn refer to Sauron, or another name? Quite right! Aragorn says this to Gimli, in "The Departure of Boromir", refuting the dwarf's suggestion that the elf-rune 'S'' on the helms of some of the slain Orcs stood for 'Sauron'. BUT... In "The Black Gate Opens", the Mouth of Sauron not only names himself as 'The Mouth of Sauron', but refers to his Master a number of times as 'Sauron' when speaking to Gandalf, Aragorn, and party in parley. Could Aragorn have learned, during his upbringing in Rivendell, that the Dark Lord does not use his right name, without ever being told what that 'right name' was (I'm suggesting Mairon here...try to keep up...ROFL!)? > (July 28th, 2023, 05:19 PM)gzhindra Wrote: Still there is no story explanation > why Sauron chooses to remain anonymous. > After all real or even fantasy leaders usually have names, real or adopted > names. I agree that there is no explanation expressed for why Sauron is averse to being called 'Sauron'. I speculate that the reason(s) may be that a)'Sauron' is not a name that he chose for himself but rather an Elven epithet and/or b) he does not like being reminded that he had a different existence before falling in with Melkor. "Never ask an Elf for advice, for he will say both 'Yes' and 'No'." - Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion Find Reply gzhindra Member Posts: 129 Threads: 18 Joined: Oct 2010 #9 July 31st, 2023, 05:12 AM I think that until the publication of Silmarillion and the other material, we had only one name for Sauron. All the other names like Gorthaur, Mairon and Thu were only in the unpublished material. I wonder if Tolkien intended that Sauron was his real name? Find Reply Alvin Eriol Posting Freak Posts: 2,642 Threads: 66 Joined: Feb 2003 #10 July 31st, 2023, 12:11 PM In Gondor particularly as of the War of the Ring, he was generally called "the Nameless." Previous discussion Sauron and Gorthaur were Elvish "cuss-words" that he was called, meaning "Abhorred" or "Detestable", and "Cruel". In the Sil77 he was apparently 1st discussed as a distinct personage named Sauron when he took Tol Sirion and (the original) Minas Tirith after the Bragollach, therefore I had speculated he was originally named so by Finrod's folk and their allies the Bëorian Men. As to "Mairon", I have to wonder who supposedly named and called him that? Indications are that he defected to Melkor before the Elves awoke, as by the War of the Powers he was already Mel's lieutenant and his commandant of Angband when Mel reigned in Utumno. If so, maybe "Mairon" is a sample of the Valarin language the Ainur used when embodied, until they adopted Quenya from the Elves in Valinor. I understood the Valar and the Maiar of Aman were given the names by which we know them, by the Elves of Aman after the Great Journey. "Melkor" was a prisoner in Aman in the Ages of the Trees, and became known and named by the Elves in those days. Sauron wasn't in Valinor, but back in ruined but not obliterated Angband, minding the store in his boss' absence. (IIRC in one phase of his Arda cycle subcreation, JRRT posited that the Ainur and Maiar did not need a language, as such, to communicate among themselves but could converse by what we'd call 'telepathy'. It would seem to follow the 'true' names of Ainur by which they know each other wouldn't be reducible to vocal sounds. JRRT didn't seem to make this idea firmly 'canonical') Of his documented "aliases" when he tempted the Elves to make Rings, Annatar (OtRoP&t3A), Aulendil, or Artano (Gally & Kelly in UT), the latter two, especially the last meaning "High-Smith," might have signified how he perceived himself. If in his last stages he indeed thought of himself as his old master returned to Arda, he surely would have used "Melkor" rather than another Elvish cussword "Morgoth!" Many Defeats & Many Fruitless Victories Memoirs Gateway For I was talking aloud to myself...the old...choose the wisest person present to speak to... Find Reply Tar-Elenion Member Posts: 134 Threads: 4 Joined: Feb 2003 #11 July 31st, 2023, 06:13 PM From the SAWA- entry in PE 17, where the name Mairon originates: "Sauron's original name was Mairon, but this was altered after he was suborned by Melkor. But he continued to call himself Mairon the Admirable, or Tar-mairon 'King Excellent' until after the downfall of Numenor." Find Reply turnipjuice Junior Member Posts: 14 Threads: 1 Joined: May 2023 #12 July 31st, 2023, 07:41 PM Hmmm. So by that source it could be that Ar-Pharazon and the higher ups at the Numenorian court knew and called him "Mairon." Interesting. Imagine walking up to him in the Third Age and saying, "Hey there Mairon!" I'm guessing you would be gone in the blink of a red eye. Find Reply Michael Super Moderator Posts: 16,073 Threads: 3,900 Joined: Feb 2003 #13 July 31st, 2023, 10:25 PM > (July 28th, 2023, 05:19 PM)gzhindra Wrote: Aragorn says at one point "neither > does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken" > Does Aragorn refer to Sauron, or another name? Aragorn's comment was made in reference to the "S" runes emblazoned on the helms of Saruman's Orcs. Hence, Aragorn could only have been referring to Sauron with "his right name" (after Gimli guessed the rune stood for "Sauron"). I think that, by the time the Mouth of Sauron named himself as such, the cat was pretty much out of the bag. Aragorn's heralds had been using the name "Sauron" for days as the Army of the West marched through Ithilien. Sauron's servants would have known to whom that name referred by that point (at least his most well-informed servants), and the Mouth had no reason to use any other name for his master in the meeting. Xenite.Org - Science Fiction and Fantasy Tolkien and Middle-earth Blog Michael Martinez Official Website and Personal Blog Website Find Reply gzhindra Member Posts: 129 Threads: 18 Joined: Oct 2010 #14 August 1st, 2023, 04:56 AM > (July 31st, 2023, 10:25 PM)Michael Wrote: > > > (July 28th, 2023, 05:19 PM)gzhindra Wrote: Aragorn says at one point > > "neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken" > > Does Aragorn refer to Sauron, or another name? > > > Aragorn's comment was made in reference to the "S" runes emblazoned on the > helms of Saruman's Orcs. Hence, Aragorn could only have been referring to > Sauron with "his right name" (after Gimli guessed the rune stood for > "Sauron"). > > I think that, by the time the Mouth of Sauron named himself as such, the cat > was pretty much out of the bag. Aragorn's heralds had been using the name > "Sauron" for days as the Army of the West marched through Ithilien. Sauron's > servants would have known to whom that name referred by that point (at least > his most well-informed servants), and the Mouth had no reason to use any other > name for his master in the meeting. Yes that is my guess too. But this implies that Sauron is his right name (in Aragorn's view). Find Reply Michael Super Moderator Posts: 16,073 Threads: 3,900 Joined: Feb 2003 #15 August 4th, 2023, 12:20 PM Yeah. I don't think Aragorn regarded anything else as his "right" name. And whatever his original name was, he hadn't used it (at least openly) for thousands of years. Xenite.Org - Science Fiction and Fantasy Tolkien and Middle-earth Blog Michael Martinez Official Website and Personal Blog Website Find Reply badlands Posting Freak Posts: 3,681 Threads: 2,489 Joined: Apr 2008 #16 August 7th, 2023, 02:57 PM (This post was last modified: August 7th, 2023, 02:58 PM by badlands.) Perhaps Sauron wish to remain anonymous so he would not be recognized. Maybe names meant power or power over like in some ancient Middle Eastern cultures. Don't insult the precious, my precious!:book: Find Reply Mordomin Master Enchanter Posts: 3,153 Threads: 326 Joined: Feb 2003 #17 August 9th, 2023, 04:58 AM (This post was last modified: August 9th, 2023, 05:05 AM by Mordomin.) > (July 31st, 2023, 10:25 PM)Michael Wrote: > > > (July 28th, 2023, 05:19 PM)gzhindra Wrote: Aragorn says at one point > > "neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken" > > Does Aragorn refer to Sauron, or another name? > > > Aragorn's comment was made in reference to the "S" runes emblazoned on the > helms of Saruman's Orcs. Hence, Aragorn could only have been referring to > Sauron with "his right name" (after Gimli guessed the rune stood for > "Sauron"). > > I think that, by the time the Mouth of Sauron named himself as such, the cat > was pretty much out of the bag. Aragorn's heralds had been using the name > "Sauron" for days as the Army of the West marched through Ithilien. Sauron's > servants would have known to whom that name referred by that point (at least > his most well-informed servants), and the Mouth had no reason to use any other > name for his master in the meeting. No, they did not. In "The Black Gate Opens" the heralds specifically say "‘Come forth!’ they cried. ‘Let the Lord of the Black Land come forth!" [italics mine] Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Lord Of The Rings (p. 888). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > (August 7th, 2023, 02:57 PM)badlands Wrote: Perhaps Sauron wish to remain > anonymous so he would not be recognized. Maybe names meant power or power over > like in some ancient Middle Eastern cultures. Interesting idea! Is this also why the Istari forsook their 'real' names when they came to Middle-earth? 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