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G503 MILITARY VEHICLE MESSAGE FORUMS
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Ford GPW, Bantam BRC MB GPW Technical Knowledge Base
I KEEP FRYING FOOT STARTER SWITCH? WIRING OR STARTER?
1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything
related to the WWII jeep.
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signsup banned Posts: 3932 Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:30 am Location: Winston,
GA
I KEEP FRYING FOOT STARTER SWITCH? WIRING OR STARTER?
* Quote
*
Post by signsup » Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:38 pm
I know al about the China stuff and pressing straight down and all the posts and
threads. I'm thinking my situation is defnately different. I go through a
starter switch in about two weeks and I am frying them.
It's probably my Bubba wiring set up. Can you please review it?
I've got a repo tub on my jeep and I'm not connecting all the wiring harness and
lights and horsn, etc. until I put the original body tub on in a few months.
Meanwhile, I want just the basic electrical to get her started and running. So
this is what I got.
Large negative battery cable to ground bolt at front crossmember. Positive large
battery cable to foot starter switch. Large cable from other side of starter
switch to starter. 12g wire from bat terminal on voltage regulator to same post
on foot starter switch as positive battery cable. Another 12 g from that same
terminal post on the foot starter switch running to the two position key. Wire
from other side of key to coil.
So key energizes coil. Foot starter switch operates all the time when pressed,
but engine will not get spark unless key is "on".
No am gage connected at this time.
It looks like it should work, but I'm burning out starter switch and this last
one is hot to the touch after only a few attempts and smells like a burning
transformer and the one before this my sonn tried to start it and it started
smoking.
I've got VR polarized.
What bonehead connection have I screwed up? And how to correct?
Last edited by signsup on Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Robert Brough
Winston, GA
2018 MVPA Honor Service Award
President, GA MVPA
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signsup banned Posts: 3932 Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:30 am Location: Winston,
GA
RE: I KEEP FRYING FOOT STARTER SWITCHES. IS IT MY WIRING?
* Quote
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Post by signsup » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:57 pm
I just remembered something else. On a previous thread, I mentioned the foot
starter switch that I got from O'Riellys auto parts with the lifetime warranty.
I'm on my 4th replacement now. Anyway, the number I mentioned in the post
someone replied that it should be a different number. I can't find on O-Riellys
web site or at the store that this is a specific 6v switch or a 12v. The store
says it doesn't matter.
Would a 12v switch burn out on a 6v system after only a few weeks? Prior to
these O-Riellys switches, I was getting the usual China stuff from G503 vendors
and having the same problem. That's why I'm thinking it's me, not China.
I can install a junction block and run my VR wire and the key wire to the block,
but I have to get them "hot" somehow. A jumper to the block from the positive
post on the starter switch?
I can go through my amp gage if it's not too difficult for me to understand.
Again, I don't want to get too involved in the wirng diagrams at this point in
time to pull everything out in a few months. But I don't want to fry anything
either.
Whatcha thinking?
Robert Brough
Winston, GA
2018 MVPA Honor Service Award
President, GA MVPA
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artificer banned Posts: 13558 Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:46 am Location:
SINGAPORE
RE: I KEEP FRYING FOOT STARTER SWITCHES. IS IT MY WIRING?
* Quote
*
Post by artificer » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:39 pm
> The store says it doesn't matter.
The store is correct.
If the switch is the only thing getting hot it is a switch issue & can be caused
by high resistance internally.
If cables are getting very hot too it can be a ground issue or internal starter
problem/s.
Quite frankly those current floor switches are a PITA & unless you keep them as
an added security issue in theft prevention, just leave it there not hooked to
anything.
Frankly I would fit a good firewall mounted & grounded Ford solenoid [6V or 12V
as the case may be & voltage is RELEVANT with an electric solenoid]. This
solenoid needs to be hooked up & activated by the ignition switch rather than
your foot.
Inexpensive & never another hassle or hernia trying to manipulate the foot
operated one.
Just be careful you get the right solenoid which needs:
Battery power in & out....an ignition switch to solenoid feed wire.
The solenoid case must be properly grounded to complete a magnetic circuit
allowing for the internals to connect the battery in & out momentarily.
This solenoid operates the starter only when the key is turned to the start
position, to start your engine.
Some solenoids have more connections to operate ignition etc. & some are for
continuous operation. You don't need any of these types.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE
Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW
MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be
established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.
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signsup banned Posts: 3932 Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:30 am Location: Winston,
GA
RE: I KEEP FRYING FOOT STARTER SWITCHES. IS IT MY WIRING?
* Quote
*
Post by signsup » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:52 pm
Yeah, I tried the solinoid route and couldn't get it to even click. Probably got
the woring type. Went back to my original set up and a week later, dead.
Robert Brough
Winston, GA
2018 MVPA Honor Service Award
President, GA MVPA
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Jamonz G-Sergeant Major
Posts: 189 Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:58 pm Location: New Zealand
RE: I KEEP FRYING FOOT STARTER SWITCHES. IS IT MY WIRING?
* Quote
*
Post by Jamonz » Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:08 pm
I would have to wonder if one the starter field coils is shorting to ground and
causing excess current through the switches? It seems to me to be a current
related issue more than anything else.
Some "good" auto electrical shops have a current draw meter that measures the
magnetic field in a battery cable (when cranking the engine) and tells you how
many amps the starter is drawing. I would be looking in this direction 1st.
The basic wiring set up you have described should "work" to hake the Jeep a
runner.
Cheers
Ian
Ian in New Zealand
1941 Willys MB
1942 Dodge WC 57
1942 Dodge WC 53
Looking for M38-A1
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signsup banned Posts: 3932 Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:30 am Location: Winston,
GA
RE: I KEEP FRYING FOOT STARTER SWITCHES. IS IT MY WIRING?
* Quote
*
Post by signsup » Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:39 pm
Hmmmmm.
My electrical shop is pretty good, but after the initial rebuild of the
generator, starter and VR, I loosened the post where the cable attaches to the
starter while tightening the cable. It would start sometimes and sometimes,
nothing. I took the starter back up and they repaired the post. Maybe something
got shorted at that time?
I'll replace the starter switch and take the jeep up to them and see if they can
check out the system with everything hooked up. Since I tried hooking up the
solinoid and everything disconnected and then reconnedted everything again, I
can't remember if I polarized the system after that. I'll make sure I do so
after this next switch install.
Robert Brough
Winston, GA
2018 MVPA Honor Service Award
President, GA MVPA
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Chuck Lutz Gee Addict Posts: 26831 Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:00 am Location:
Jeep Heaven
RE: I KEEP FRYING FOOT STARTER SWITCHES. IS IT MY WIRING?
* Quote
*
Post by Chuck Lutz » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:41 am
1) What is the amperage drawn by the starting motor?
2) What is the switch rated to draw in amperage?
Chuck Lutz
GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947
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signsup banned Posts: 3932 Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:30 am Location: Winston,
GA
RE: I KEEP FRYING FOOT STARTER SWITCHES. IS IT MY WIRING?
* Quote
*
Post by signsup » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:36 am
Chuck,
That's beyond me. Next time my sone is home from college, we'll put the meter on
it. Or, I may just have the shop that rebuilt all the electrical stuff. Right
now, I just wanted to make sure my wiring wasn't cuasing the problem. I want to
check my ground connections again on that front crossmember and see if it gets
warm when I try to start. I know early on, it smoked until I cleaned off all the
paint and used lock tite with some copper in it. Maybe I need to revisit that
ground as well.
Robert Brough
Winston, GA
2018 MVPA Honor Service Award
President, GA MVPA
Top
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Chuck Lutz Gee Addict Posts: 26831 Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:00 am Location:
Jeep Heaven
RE: I KEEP FRYING FOOT STARTER SWITCHES. IS IT MY WIRING?
* Quote
*
Post by Chuck Lutz » Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:41 pm
Perhaps you are drawing too much AMPERAGE through the switch and it's burning
them up....Ian has posed the question about the starter pulling excess
amperage....
If you have one of the switches that went crispy maybe you can open it up and
post photos of the contact surfaces....which may be burnt up to the point no
contact is being made...before you do that, use a simple continuity tester and
see if the switch closes the circuit when you press the button on it....I don't
think it will and that may be the problem here...
Of course if you had a spare starter to install and another starter switch you
might discover that is where the problem is as Ian is suggesting may be the
case...
I am not of the opinion that any small gauge wire is at fault as it would burn
up first....as long as you are not grounding the lead that goes to the starter
from the switch to the switch case you should not consider that the cause
either....the main cable to the switch from the battery is "hot" all the time
and if it wa shorted out you'd know it pretty fast!
Chuck Lutz
GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947
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artificer banned Posts: 13558 Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:46 am Location:
SINGAPORE
RE: I KEEP FRYING FOOT STARTER SWITCHES. IS IT MY WIRING?
* Quote
*
Post by artificer » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:42 pm
> If cables are getting very hot too it can be a ground issue or internal
> starter problem/s.
Back to basics without the waffle.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE
Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW
MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be
established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.
Top
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
J-C G-First Sergeant
Posts: 143 Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 7:41 am Location: Taubate - SP Brazil
RE: I KEEP FRYING FOOT STARTER SWITCHES. IS IT MY WIRING?
* Quote
*
Post by J-C » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:32 pm
"Positive large battery cable to foot starter switch. Large cable from other
side of starter switch to starter."
Witch cable is hoter? If both cable are similar in temperature, the problem is
not in the switch.
If the cable "positive large batery to foot starter switch" is the hoter one,
you probably has a short circuit in the switch. When you press the switch u put
in short circuit the batery through the switch.
good luck
J-C
MB 1942 DOD 12 14 42
WILLYS CJ3A 1952
WILLYS TRUCK 1952
WILLYS FORD RURAL 1977(STATION WAGON)
WILLYS FORD JEEP 1982 (CJ5)
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Wolfman G-Lieutenant General
Posts: 6616 Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:25 am Location: Tipton,In.
RE: I KEEP FRYING FOOT STARTER SWITCHES. IS IT MY WIRING?
* Quote
*
Post by Wolfman » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:13 am
My vote is for a starter problem.
Have you tried disconnecting the heavy starter cable from the starter to the
foot switch.
Connect a battery jumper cable to the starter post and touch the other end to
the battery ?
You should get a healthy spark on contact but the starter should engage and
crank the engine normally. ( Be sure the transmission is in neutral !! ).
If when you touch the battery jumper cable to the battery it seems like you are
arc welding and the starter does little or nothing, you have a starter problem.
Maybe !
If the starter engages really hard but the engine turns real slow, you might
want to put a breaker bar on the crankshaft pulley nut to be sure the engine
turns over freely.
A tight engine will burn up starters and foot switches and make the cables get
hot.
Mike Wolford
CJ-2A
VEP GPW
Comm./Inst. SEL
AOPA ( 49 yrs)
EAA ( 49 yrs)
4th Inf. Div. - 5th Inf. Div. - 2nd Armor Div. - CIB
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signsup banned Posts: 3932 Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:30 am Location: Winston,
GA
RE: I KEEP FRYING FOOT STARTER SWITCHES. IS IT MY WIRING?
* Quote
*
Post by signsup » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:28 am
Mike,
A lot of possibilities with your thinking. This engine was rebuilt and upon
initial start up, I posted how "tight" the engine was turning. At that time, the
addition of ground straps seemed to solve the problem. And I have driven maybe
100 miles on the engine since. But, I'll be honest, when pressing the starter
switch, it always seems like the battery is low and the engine turns over slow.
But always started, and I have no frame of reference of how these 6v systems and
4 cyl engines are supposed to sound.
I'll do the jumper cable direct to the starter this morning and see what it
sounds/acts like and report back. Sounds like I need to replace the starter
switch and at least get it started and drive it up to the generator/starter shop
and see what they can determine. And, I'll pull apart the old starter switch and
post some photos of the contacts for general knowledge. And, while I am at the
auto parts shop, I may try to get a correct solinoid and mount it up. It is my
understanding that I can install it in the loop of the current configuration
with the original two position switch. Connect the large cables to the oppostie
posts of the solinoid and jumper wires from the toe starter switch to the
solinoid so that the key energizes the coil, the foot starter switch energizes
the solinoid and the solinoid takes the "surge" and energizes the starter. I
need to find 6v internal negative ground solinoid as I understand it.
I'll ask on a seperate post if anyone has a NAPA number for the correct
solinoid.
TO THE GARAGE!
Robert Brough
Winston, GA
2018 MVPA Honor Service Award
President, GA MVPA
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artificer banned Posts: 13558 Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:46 am Location:
SINGAPORE
RE: I KEEP FRYING FOOT STARTER SWITCHES. IS IT MY WIRING?
* Quote
*
Post by artificer » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:50 am
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detai ... &ppt=C0330
I agree with Mike & Ian that the starter is an obvious culprit [you just don't
get X number of switches that all fail immediately without some other cause]
BUT....
Newly rebuilt engines might seem a little tight but there is tight & TOO tight &
yours it seems maybe the latter.
How does the engine turn over with the crank handle?
If you can't turn comfortably with the crank then the starter will have the same
problem.
That will cause the starter to draw way too much current for too long, get too
hot & eventually fail.
The floor switch, being the weakest link, will fail before the starter.
Does that seem valid or your issue?
What type of rear main oil seal did you use?
BTW try bypassing the floor switch it will cost you nothing.
And fitting a solenoid, such as that O'Riellys above will not solve the problem
but it will burn up as well.
Lucky your suppliers have good warranty policies!
Last edited by artificer on Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE
Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW
MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be
established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.
Top
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Gopan Gee Addict Posts: 49838 Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 2:37 pm Location:
Proving Ground
RE: I KEEP FRYING FOOT STARTER SWITCHES. IS IT MY WIRING?
* Quote
*
Post by Joe Gopan » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:00 pm
What are you using for hardware on the terminal post of the starter "OEM" uses
copper plated nuts. Did you install the ground cables that are attached to the
engine?
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE
SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE
FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
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COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO
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