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LOUISIANA COPS SUED AFTER DASH CAM VIDEO SHOWED THEY LIED ABOUT WHY THEY
PERFORMED A PRETEXTUAL STOP

Legal Issues

FROM THE COPS-LIE DEPT

Tue, Nov 8th 2022 07:53pm - Tim Cushing

Courts have continually said pretextual stops are a cool way to engage in law
enforcement fishing expeditions. But there are a few caveats.

First, there needs to be a reason to stop the person, even if that reason exists
largely in the imaginative readings of local statutes by police officers.
Second, the stop cannot be unreasonably extended past the point of its
objective. When you hand out a citation or tell someone they’re free to go,
they’re free to go. You can’t keep them detained while trying to find other ways
to talk them into warrantless searches.

Finally, when you’re asked to defend your actions in court, your pretext had
better hold up. And you had damn well better make sure you’re not recording
evidence that contradicts your claims. That’s a fatal error, and one that
appears to have been committed by two Louisiana cops now being sued by the
people they pulled over, with the assistance of the Institute for Justice.

Mario Rosales and his girlfriend were driving through Alexandria, Louisiana when
cops decided to pull them over. Prior to this stop, Rosales had stopped at a red
light, signaled his intent to make a left hand turn, and made a legal left hand
turn (with his blinker on) when the light turned green. All of this was
dispassionately observed by the dash cam in Officer Samuel Terrell’s SUV.

This is what happened next, as recounted in Rosales’ lawsuit [PDF]:

> About 10 seconds after that, the light turned green. With his left turn signal
> blinking, Mario legally turned left through the intersection, onto Dorchester
> Drive. The police SUV followed. While the SUV was in the middle of the
> intersection, the officers activated its lights and pulled Mario and Gracie
> over.
>
> Contradicted by clear video evidence, the officers would later claim to have
> pulled the car over for failure to signal.
>
> Mario immediately pulled over and waited in his car. Gracie likewise remained
> buckled in the car.
>
> Officer Samuel Terrell got out of the SUV and stood at the front of the police
> vehicle. He told Mario to get out of the car and come to him.

Here’s the clear video evidence. The thing Terrell said was the reason for the
stop (failure to signal) is clearly contradicted less than 35 seconds into the
recording:

And here’s what followed the bogus stop, as recounted by the Institute for
Justice:

> Over the next 20 minutes, two police officers searched Mario and interrogated
> him and his girlfriend—not just about where they live and work, but also about
> a litany of drugs, past interactions with police, and their feelings about the
> U.S. Constitution. All without a single reason to believe Mario or Gracie were
> dangerous or involved in drugs or that either committed any crime whatsoever.
> They weren’t; they aren’t; and they hadn’t. When Mario and Gracie asked why
> they had been pulled over, the officers answered that Mario failed to use his
> turn signal. But multiple recordings of the incident clearly show that Mario
> used his blinker. When asked why they were questioning Mario and Gracie about
> drugs, the officers’ answer was they were “just curious.”

A completely unconstitutional stop, followed by an unconstitutional detainment.
Multiple recordings show not only that Rosales activated his turn signal, but
that it was a clear, bright day and nothing obstructed the officer’s view of
Rosales’ car or his turn signal.

The officers also denied Rosales’ request that his girlfriend record the traffic
stop. The officers pointed to their body cameras, claiming this was all the
recording anyone would need. Rosales logically pointed out he’d like to have his
own record of the stop, considering how often recordings by officers go missing
after rights have been violated. Rosales’ concern wasn’t theoretical. This had
already happened to him.

> Mario was criminally assaulted by an off-duty officer in Roswell, New Mexico,
> in 2018. See Rosales v. Bradshaw et al., 2021 WL 5356668, CIV 20-751 JB/JHR at
> *3 (D.N.M. Nov. 17, 2021), appeal filed, No. 22 2027 (10th Cir.). Mario could
> not obtain body camera or dash camera footage from the officer or his
> employer.

Rosales was allowed to use his phone to access insurance information, showing
the cops didn’t fear his possession of his phone. They also had no reason to
believe his girlfriend’s access to her phone would pose any threat to them. But
they refused to let either of them record this stop.

Twenty-one minutes of bullshit, with the officers refusing to let the couple
record the stop, separating them so each officer could pepper them with similar
questions about drug possession, continual reminders issued that they had been
“legally stopped” (they hadn’t), culminating in one officer’s verbal expression
of disappointment when records checks came up clean.

> Officer Lewis soon asked Officer Terrell, “So what are you gonna write him
> for?”
>
> Officer Terrell: “Right now, failure to signal. Uh, since he keeps going back
> and still has residence in New Mexico … .”
>
> Officer Lewis told Officer Terrell, “I would err on the side of caution on
> that,” meaning that Officer Terrell should, despite his uncertainty that Mario
> had violated any registration statutes, cite Mario for not having updated his
> license and registration to reflect where he stays in Louisiana.
>
> After a pause, Officer Lewis said that he didn’t have a reason to run their
> dog on Mario’s car and that he “really didn’t see a whole lot of indicators of
> him [Mario] not being completely truthful.”
>
> Officer Lewis soon advised Officer Terrell, “So yeah I would do the PC to stop
> and there’s also um, failure to update his ID, and you can go ahead and put
> failure to register on there, too.”
>
> Dispatch soon radioed the officers to give them the results of the history
> checks: “Negative all around on both.”
>
> Officer Lewis expressed disappointment: “Aaaw. What are the chances of that?!”
> He soon reiterated, “Aw man!”

They went fishing and went home with nothing, big or small, to fry. And the only
response was disappointment that an unwarranted records check failed to deliver
the probable cause needed to excuse the rights violations they officers had
already engaged in.

As the lawsuit points out, that’s a lot of violations. A handful of Fourth
Amendment violations peppered with First Amendment violations because the
officers refused to let the couple record the stop.

The officers will definitely request qualified immunity. They may get a partial
reward, depending on how well they can argue that refusing to allow the couple
to access their phones was just them ensuring their safety during this stop. But
it’s hard to see how they escape the rest. The stated reason for the stop is
clearly contradicted by the recording. And everything that happened after that
had nothing to do with addressing the alleged traffic violation. In fact, it
appears the officers immediately went off-task in hope of having their drug
hunches confirmed.

That’s a clear violation of established law and the single thing supporting the
initiation of the traffic stop is an undeniable lie. Good luck with that,
jackasses. This lawsuit should move forward and these officers will hopefully
have to explain to a jury why they decided to violate a bunch of rights rather
than allow someone obeying traffic laws to continue driving through their town
unmolested.

Filed Under: alexandria, louisiana, mario rosales, pretextual stops, samuel
terrell

21 CommentsLeave a Comment

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COMMENTS ON “LOUISIANA COPS SUED AFTER DASH CAM VIDEO SHOWED THEY LIED ABOUT WHY
THEY PERFORMED A PRETEXTUAL STOP”

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21 Comments Collapse all replies

This comment is new since your last visit.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
That Anonymous Coward (profile) says:
November 8, 2022 at 8:59 pm

“these officers will hopefully have to explain to a jury why they decided to
violate a bunch of rights”

The answer is because he is brown, so all of their wisdom and training said dude
who used his blinker only did so to throw them off of his trail as criminals
often do.

They should not be officers.
They can not be trusted to not lie, they can not be trusted to remember rights
aren’t based on skin pigmentation.

Just once I would love to see a city actually fire these idiots for having cost
citizens millions, believing themselves above the law.

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Threaded [2]
discussitlive (profile) says:
November 8, 2022 at 9:29 pm

RE:

Just once I would love to see a city actually fire these idiots for having cost
citizens millions, believing themselves above the law.

There in lies the crux of the matter. I’d like to see it every single damned
time.

What is the legal term for suing someone not as a government employee, but in
their own person? In Pro Persona or something doesn’t seem correct. I’m a geek,
not a lawyer; I have to deal with lawyers and LEO constantly. I buy scratchy
underwear and shirts to practice my ability to tolerate useless annoyances. (no
offense – The attorneys aren’t too bad, it’s the LEO that hangs a steering wheel
on my belt buckle. Drives me nuts.)

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Threaded [3]
Flakbait (profile) says:
November 9, 2022 at 8:40 am

RE: RE: CRAWL, WALK, RUN

“I’d like to see it every single damned time.”

We all would. But we have to start somewhere, and TAC’s first firing is a good
place.

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Threaded [2]
Dave says:
November 9, 2022 at 9:13 am

RE:

The problem with the city firing the idiots is that, if they have already gone
through police training, they will have no problem getting a job in any other
police department. Training is expensive.

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Threaded [3]
That Anonymous Coward (profile) says:
November 9, 2022 at 4:19 pm

RE: RE:

Ah but their names on the record as having lied on reports & to the court should
make them unemployable.

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Threaded [4]
Tanner Andrews (profile) says:
November 10, 2022 at 3:10 am

RE: RE: RE: NO UNIVERSAL _BRADY_ LIST

> their names on the record as having lied on reports & to the court

You might hope so, but there is no universal Brady list. Even if the state’s
attorney in their current location were inclined to list these guys, the next
jurisdiction over is not going to pick up that information.

More likely, the state’s attorney in the next jurisdiction over will actively
resist knowing about any Brady violations by the new hires. It will be up to
some eager defense attorney to track the employment history and spring it at
trial.

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Threaded [3]
Artor says:
November 10, 2022 at 8:20 am

RE: RE: TRAINING IS EXPENSIVE.

If training is so expensive, why don’t we ever see evidence of it? The money
goes down a hole, and we still have ignorant cops who don’t know how to do their
jobs.

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JustMe (profile) says:
November 9, 2022 at 5:42 am

WE'VE SEEN SIMILAR LAX ATTITUDES ABOUT FOLLOWING PROCEDURES

Watching a lot of court videos lately, along with live commentary from lawyers
and subject matter experts. Some, not all, of the officers we’ve seen testifying
appear to be poorly trained, have poor understanding of basic police procedures,
improper evidence handling processes, and generally seemed to be making up rules
as they go. It was… disturbing.

For one example take a look at the NM v. Dean Cummings (Extreme Skier On Trial)
coverage on the YT: Lokificant’s Lair, Law Talk with Mike, J Robine Law all had
excellent streams.

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Dr evil says:
November 9, 2022 at 6:28 am

IN THE MEAN TIME

Victims.. file for permanent restraining Orders against the cops involved to
protect against FURTHER retribution while you pursue their police certifications
and surety bond. Cancel a cop “career” today.

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Ed (profile) says:
November 9, 2022 at 6:52 am

REASON #58273927...

… why nobody respects cops anymore. They’re nothing but bullies with a gun and a
badge who do nothing to “protect and serve” anyone but themselves.

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jkr4m3r (profile) says:
November 9, 2022 at 7:36 am

COPS LIE?

Say it ain’t so.

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This comment has been deemed funny by the community.
z! (profile) says:
November 9, 2022 at 8:25 am

RE:

Say it ain’t so.

I could, but I’d be lying.

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TheResidentSkeptic (profile) says:
November 9, 2022 at 11:01 am

POLICE MOTTO

“To Protect and Serve”

Channeling Kosh from B5 for a moment…

“Whom do you protect?”
and
“Whom do you serve?”

The TRUTHFUL answers to these would make for some interesting debate.

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Diogenes (profile) says:
November 9, 2022 at 11:59 am

LIARS GONNA LIE

Why should their testimony ever be considered by a jury in any case, after
knowing they lie?

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Anonymous Coward says:
November 11, 2022 at 6:49 am

RE:

that’s what the “brady” list is for….

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alastair says:
November 9, 2022 at 2:51 pm

Whispers to myself:

“Dont be black, dont be black, dont be black”

Reads article:

“Dammit”

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TheDumberHalf says:
November 10, 2022 at 10:37 am

IN THE YEAR 3000

I cannot wait until most, if not all cars are automated. Traffic cops will
REALLY have to do Olympic grade gymnastics to justifying a stop.

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Jon (profile) says:
November 10, 2022 at 11:03 am

LOUISIANA COPS LIED

Put these pieces of stool in jail where they belong. Illegal activity should be
prosecuted no matter who…

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Taryn J. White (profile) says:
November 10, 2022 at 1:35 pm

The wrongful traffic stops happen way too often even with police body cameras.
They always go fishing for a false DUI arrest since it’s one of the few crimes
where a person is guilty until proven innocent with the way current laws are set
up to cash in at a driver’s expense.

Great, you’ll be found not guilty – but still be out thousands of dollars in
lawyer fees either way. Wonderful system that police exploit daily.

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Taryn J. White (profile) says:
November 11, 2022 at 12:42 pm

RE:

Moreover, there is no excuse for police to use excessive interrogation
techniques in scenarios like with this recent incident in the news with a minor
traffic stop.

Unfortunately, on the other hand, local traffic law is regularly violated by
reckless, intoxicated, or otherwise distracted drivers.

When the careless action of an at fault driver results in a vehicle collision,
both the victim and their family have important local Injury Law Rights to sue
by filing a car accident lawsuit claim to receive settlement compensation in a
timely manner.
Legal Reference:
https://injurylawrights.com/pro-bono-injury-lawyers-for-motor-vehicle-accidents/

Trusted free car accident attorney offices in the area who specialize in injury
claim cases, hold at fault drivers liable for causing the auto crash and
dangerous decisions made while behind wheel.

As this article emphasizes, it is important to contact local car accident Injury
Law Rights lawyers who are trained legal experts with recent auto claims. An
experienced injury attorney office is open 24 hours to provide free legal help
for victims, to review the pending vehicle crash case and begin the lawsuit
process and sue for damages which includes pain and suffering.

Furthermore, if an individual or family member has been hurt by a drunk driver
or otherwise intoxicated driver from a DUI accident, it is legally crucial that
a person knows where to turn for immediate free DUI lawyer help.
Legal Source: https://fightduicharges.com/blog/pro-bono-lawyers-for-dui-defense/

Even for a first DUI offense, the current consequences are severe and can
negatively affect the future of both a DUI defendant and claimant. Particularly
when the auto crash is because of driving under the influence of alcohol or
drugs, a person will need the best defense attorney help in the county before
going to court to fight DUI charges and minimize state penalties.

Only skilled attorney offices can provide legal advice to determine if reckless
driving played a role in a car crash, and determine who is legally accountable
to file an accident claim lawsuit against to sue for fair settlement
compensation.

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Roy simmons says:
November 10, 2022 at 5:52 pm

These two officers need to be placed on administrative leave without pay.
Investigated for further crimes against people and the violations of the
constitution. (A oath they took to uphold). If convicted their law license
should be revoked and charges filled against them for malfeasance in office.
They should also be liable for any money this couple receives from the law suit.

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* Samuel Abram: I sit corrected.
* Hey everybody. I just found out that Death Row Records' catalog and
trademarks was acquired earlier this year by Calvin Broadus p.k.a. Snoop
Dogg, though 2Pac's master rights have been returned to his estate and Dr.
Dre disputes the ownership of the Chronic. Whereas the catalog was ubiquitous
as late as last year, now they can't be found anywhere. When I googled for a
reason why, I discovered this article which was dated as last April:
[article]
https://consequence.net/2022/04/snoop-dogg-death-row-streaming-platform/
* I think we can tell from the fracturing of the video streaming industry that
seeing a similar fracturing in the music streaming industry will be way worse
for consumers.
* I would say it would lead to piracy, but considering that none of the death
row catalog could be purchased or streamed anywhere, it already is
_archived_: [video]
https://archive.org/details/snoop-dogg-doggystyle-album
* Although with shit like this I fear that Snoop Dogg will be a party to the
lawsuit against the internet archive
* Then again, the Archive itself didn't upload it.
* No offense to you, @Mike Masnick, but I consider the Internet Archive to be
the best web site on the internet
* mildconcern: hey @Tim Cushing your line about Liz Truss losing the public
vote was backwards if anything. She won the vote of the party membership, but
came in 2nd in the voting among MPs. Neither was particularly 'public'
however.
* I've spent about 5 years now closely following UK political news whenever I
need to feel better about America.
* Samuel Abram: It's stuff like this that make me love the public domain:
[image]
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/312605027_10103367078759019_8209985213721814013_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=jpr0dk6TnMoAX-7jrKJ&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=00_AT8Gqyf6NiZOhMrtVhfTaqXtXkKgDCle3aZysAhO0_MxKQ&oe=635B3A54
* For reference, that's the Lego set from the Museum of Modern Art in NYC.
* John Roddy: 9th Circuit refuses to expand FOSTA to the broad definition that
moral police want it to be.
* https://twitter.com/gabrielmalor...
https://twitter.com/gabrielmalor/status/1584613985248284704?t=_fcxwW3UPNCISAX7uxWCnw&s=19
* Still waiting to hear back on the case against Twitter.
* If memory serves, the district court held directly the opposite and let some
claims stand.
* Mike Masnick: i was just saying to someone else about this 9th circuit
ruling, that i expect it will lead to calls in congress to expand fosta...
* Cathy Gellis: (That someone else was me. It was me he was antagonizing with
this observation...)
* John Roddy: Yeah, "Mike," why aren't you writing about that gay wedding cake
incident that I misremembered from several years ago? BIAS MUCH?!?!!?
* Mike Masnick: so much ridiculousness... though there was a new baker decision
this week that i'm thinking of writing about
* John Roddy: > The John Roddy lunatic
* :3
* mildconcern: I flew back to the US from Europe and jetlag meant I woke up at
3AM today. I killed some of that time just blocking everyone with a stupid
answer to that thread of doom of yours on Twitter
* I'm probably just going to kill my lightly used twitter account anyway soon
but whatever, it was mildly entertaining
* Mike Masnick: I wasted the whole day blocking people.
* BentFranklin: YouTube Ads Are Getting Insane and I Hate It. [video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_--LvdAHfVo
* Terms of Service by Ruben Bolling [article]
https://thenib.com/copyright-and-copywrong/
* mildconcern: this is good but as a fountain pen user I'm also jealous of the
domain name.
* so is Mastadon worthy of the time? I've been thinking of setting up a server
just for shits and giggles to check it out.
* Mike Masnick: i'm playing around with mastodon. it's... okay so far. it's...
a lot less developed than twitter and it shows. so it has a lot of rough
edges. but it's okay for now. i'm much more looking forward to planetary or
bluesky once they're more mainstream
* mildconcern: Bluesky I'm skeptical of because if Jack Dorsey had a sense of
focus and follow through on things, Twitter wouldn't have been in a position
to be bought so easily by Elon
* Planetary is new to me, I'll take a look. Seems further along anyway
* God knows that even though I never posted there, killing twitter will still
free up a lot of idle time for me
* Mike Masnick: all the stories about jack's involvement in bluesky are
misleading. he's on the board, but it's not him.
* the person running bluesky is brilliant and has a real vision.
* Samuel Abram: I'd like to announce that I'm on Mastodon: [link]
https://mstdn.social/@IronCurtain/
* (Other than on Techdirt, I'm known by my online alter-ego, Iron Curtain)
* You followed me, Mike! I'm extremely flattered!
* Mike Masnick: Heh. Sure. In case anyone wants to follow me there as well, I'm
at: [link]
https://mastodon.social/@mmasnick
though I may eventually switch servers. But also, still expecting that
Mastodon is a placeholder for something better.
* BentFranklin: Adobe steals your color [link]
https://pluralistic.net/2022/10/28/fade-to-black/
* Mike Masnick: @Timothy Geigner is on the pantone story
* John Roddy: Well color me substituted with black due to licensing changes.
* mildconcern: I didn't think I spent that much time on Twitter, especially
given how little I posted. But holy hell am I getting a lot of work done
today
* John Roddy: Honestly, the previous management deserves some HUGE props.
* The fact that the entire infrastructure hasn't completely imploded by now is
truly impressive.
* mildconcern: My sister works for them actually
* And so hearing from the public ear and then her perceptions of the chaos has
been interesting
* bigtroublewingcong: Just finished reading your takedown on the Intercept
piece, Mike. I would echo your early statements in the article about folks
appreciating what CISA does. I personally leverage a lot of the information
they share through threat reports and bulletins. They’ve also recently
released a really good mapping of the NIST Cybersecurity Framework to the
MITRE attack framework in plain/straightforward language. They do a lot of
good things for the cyber community.
* Mike Masnick: but people are screaming at me on twitter that nothing the
gov't could possibly do could be good and not evil
* John Roddy: https://twitter.com/tmornini/sta...
https://twitter.com/tmornini/status/1588235217877098496?t=0UeSS0U22q4W_OrQsIwa_A&s=19
* This guy had two tweets. The other praised a certain ISP.
* Go ahead and try to guess which one.
* mildconcern: There's still more than one ISP?
* Mike Masnick: but john, he wants you to hodl
* John Roddy: [link]
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/65680829/cornet-v-twitter-inc/
* IT BEGINS
* deadspatula: Are: try guys coverage - I have this urge to write up thoughts
on the media’s now demonstrated failure to take any lesson from #metoo, and
how that dovetails with the core problems they face talking about content
moderation. but I’m ramping into a manic phase and none of these thoughts may
make sense in reality, so i will drop that i find the way the NYT ignored the
employer having relations with an employee issue, and how SNL which currently
faces its own historical abuse scandals also chose to ignore it, striking in
how they both choose to present the issue as a group of friends having a
silly fallout over relationship drama, and not a successful media company
firing an executive for misconduct.
* Bode: lol
* Mike Masnick: i have done my best to not understand who the try guys are who
why there's a scandal around them. i only have so much time
* John Roddy: I've seen a lot of people testing to discuss them.
* Which means we don't have to. ^^
* BentFranklin: Webcomic artist Alex Norris vs. Golden Bell [link]
https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/yq1jnd/webcomic_artist_alex_norris_vs_golden_bell/
This guy: [image]
https://64.media.tumblr.com/c242f5ab54c1577bdae893f621c55962/d6ecd8845869a8c6-e2/s1280x1920/1831a0bcbb45b818969b7d2aa82b6e47cd48119d.png
* mildconcern: Rumor is there's a delicious all hands meeting going on in
Twitter right now
* Wonder how many hands are left now that half of them were chopped off.
* John Roddy: Welp. I think it's safe to say that the board totally pulled a
Tom from MySpace on Musk.
* Mike Masnick: What a clusterfuck.
* mildconcern: My sister was part of their layoff (but will be fine for various
reasons). That means I can enjoy how extremely funny this is without guilt.
* I told her she should write a book.
* John Roddy: I'm pretty sure there's a book due for release this month about
Liz Truss's rise to power.
* mildconcern: the Eli Lilly thing today was high comedy and totally
inevitable.
* Hmm, if it comes out fast enough it might make it out before the next Prime
Minister replaces Sunak
* John Roddy: Prime Minister Joris Bohnson?
* mildconcern: Next in line would be Penny Mordaunt, but sure, that's possible
too
* We'll truly know it's done when Jacob Rees-Mogg has his spin.
* John Roddy: Whatever happened to that Eric Pickles guy?
* mildconcern: There's a truly wretched piece of humanity
* Woo boy: Pickles is the UK Special Envoy for Post-Holocaust issues, being
appointed in 2015
* oh and he got booted up to Lords when he stepped down from Parliament
* so he is, I shit you not, Baron Pickles.
* John Roddy: Holy shit, the jokes about him being a Bond villain were SPOT ON.
O.o
* Why yes, I am a big fan of Mock The Week.
* And yes. I am also bitter. >.<
* mildconcern: I became a passionate fan of UK politics starting with brexit. I
found the collapse of someone else's government comforting.
* John Roddy: I was able to get a little bit of context from MTW about the
lead-up to that.
* Credit where it's due...
* mildconcern: I sat on my deck the night of the Brexit vote and had just spent
a good chunk of time in northern Ireland.
* John Roddy: Recovering from credible allegations of sexual acts with a dead
pig is really hard to manage.
* mildconcern: because of timezones I could stay up for the whole result unlike
folks in the UK
* and I remember thinking
* John Roddy: But somehow, Cameron found a way to do it.
* mildconcern: "Gosh, how does this even work with the Good Friday Agreement? I
don't see how they can have a trade border without some janky awfulness
somewhere."
* and then i said
* "You're being silly, you visited the place for 3 weeks, you're far from some
expert about things there, and this is the government of the country."
* Turns out.....I was not being silly
* Better a dead pig than a live one? I... think?
* John Roddy: Oh the sexual acts to the pig are nothing compared to what he did
to the country.
* mildconcern: yes. Rather similar in style
* I wonder when the food riots begin
* I was listening to the Mike Duncan revolutions podcast series about 1848 last
week
* and the description of the runup felt....very familiar
* Tocqueville's quote, "Gentlemen, we are sitting on a volcano."

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