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Submitted URL: http://rangerovers.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15632
Effective URL: https://www.rangerovers.net/threads/please-read-all-p38-owners-up-to-mid-1999-brake-modulators.15632/
Submission: On December 22 via api from AU — Scanned from AU
Effective URL: https://www.rangerovers.net/threads/please-read-all-p38-owners-up-to-mid-1999-brake-modulators.15632/
Submission: On December 22 via api from AU — Scanned from AU
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PLEASE READ ALL P38 OWNERS UP TO MID 1999(BRAKE MODULATORS)
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135K views 497 replies 110 participants last post by Carlosmembrado Nov 29,
2023
HSE Discussion starter
390 posts · Joined 2005
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#1 · Mar 22, 2008
Hi Gents,
Recently I had a 95' HSE bought to me with no brakes.I removed the brake
modulator and started to strip the unit down.What I found was quite scary.An
internal component made of plastic had failed, this rendered the car with zero
brakes!!!!I have been told by LR and wabco that no parts are available and the
units are unserviceable.Rubbish!!!I have a Range Rover diagnostic business with
faultmate MV server setup in FNQ AUS, and have engineered stainless steel
components to replace the plastic parts. A new modulator is around $6000aus plus
fitting and more than likely an ABS pump at $2500aus.I rang a local LR D'ship
and was quoted $9500aus to repair the above.
As we all know many older P38's are worth less than $15000aus these days and to
be confronted with a $10000aus fix would for most be out of the question.Having
said that a car with no brakes is useless.Replacing the modulator with a
serviceable used unit is also a very short term fix, as I have found after
fixing 5 in the past 3 months that age is the factor of failure and not klms.All
cars I have fix have been within 8 months of the same age with very varied klms
covered.Each unit had failed exactly the same way.So please if your brake pedal
feels strange in any way do something about it, each car I have fixed gave
little or no warning.Luckily all have avoided a serious accident.
If you would like to discuss this with me please e-mail at
rx007.car@bigpond.com. I'm looking at doing cost affective repairs to these
units posted to me if not in my area.
Regards Russell.
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I'd rather push my overheated HSE than drive a tojo
04' L322 Vogue 22' overfinch wheels
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996TURBO
2498 posts · Joined 2006
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#2 · Mar 24, 2008
Interesting but what to do for non Australian mates?
1997 P38 4.6
LPG
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tech_support
131 posts · Joined 2005
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#3 · Mar 24, 2008
Hi HSE,
Could you please explain what the symptoms of the impending failure are?
At what age do the modulators fail?
Cheers,
Mick.
"I thought that computers were supposed to make our lives easier???"
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Zubi
948 posts · Joined 2004
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#4 · Mar 24, 2008
What is the part in the modulator that fails?
______________
Range Rover
L322 4.4 2003
Ex-P38A 4.0 1997
Ex-R.R.C. 3.9 1994
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HSE Discussion starter
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#5 · Mar 24, 2008
Interesting but what to do for non Australian mates?
Good question.I would suggest that I could supply iinstructions and replacement
components. If you are capable you could attempt yourself or take the vehicle to
a shop. You will find that most shops if they are mechanical or brake
specialists will not want to touch them due to liability.
Could you please explain what the symptoms of the impending failure are?
At what age do the modulators fail?
Ok, symtoms are a stage or click in the pedal as you apply your brakes. Or any
warning lights at any time.Basically be wary of any change in the brake process.
From the cars I have fixed (5)they have been 95/96 models with drastically
different klm's This is why a second hand replacement is a short term fix.
I'd rather push my overheated HSE than drive a tojo
04' L322 Vogue 22' overfinch wheels
94' Classic Vogue Plus
93' Classic LSE
85' Classic
58' 88inch series 1 "Stella"
RX7 13b turbo 450bhp fast
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HSE Discussion starter
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#6 · Mar 24, 2008
What is the part in the modulator that fails?
The component failure is in the hydraulic section of the brake modulator. When
this fails you have a complete loss of brakes, only the handbrake to pull up.I
will add to that repairing this situation prior to brake failure is recommended
as once the failure has happened they is usually additional damage to the unit,
in some cases rendering it useless.
I'd rather push my overheated HSE than drive a tojo
04' L322 Vogue 22' overfinch wheels
94' Classic Vogue Plus
93' Classic LSE
85' Classic
58' 88inch series 1 "Stella"
RX7 13b turbo 450bhp fast
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wills
933 posts · Joined 2006
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#7 · Mar 24, 2008
> HSE said:
> Ok, symtoms are a stage or click in the pedal as you apply your brakes. Or any
> warning lights at any time.Basically be wary of any change in the brake
> process. From the cars I have fixed (5)they have been 95/96 models with
> drastically different klm's This is why a second hand replacement is a short
> term fix.
> Click to expand...
Can you provide pictures and guides here then please?? Ive had a sort of 'click'
in my brake pedal for a long time now. Its sometimes there and sometimes isnt.
When I had a full fluid change at my last service this went away for a while but
then returned.
I know im not the only one on here with this 'click' in the pedal so more info
and pics would be great to see please.
-Wills
98 Range Rover 2.5 DSE Auto
Faultmate MSV
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Ka177ran
1706 posts · Joined 2007
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#8 · Mar 24, 2008
Pardon my scepticism, but surely if this problem causes catastrophic failure of
the braking system, would Land Rover not be liable to recall the vehicles and
correct the problem?
Kamran
1998 - 4.0 - Ex Police 'Special Vehicle' - Single Point LPG
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wills
933 posts · Joined 2006
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#9 · Mar 24, 2008
This is what I was thinking. Thats why I think we need photos and precise
details of the bit that is failing.
Im not doubting your work at all Russell but we need more info, especially for
people like us all the way over here in the UK where sending the unit to
yourself would not be a viable option.
-Wills
98 Range Rover 2.5 DSE Auto
Faultmate MSV
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HSE Discussion starter
390 posts · Joined 2005
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#10 · Mar 24, 2008
Pardon my scepticism, but surely if this problem causes catastrophic failure of
the braking system, would Land Rover not be liable to recall the vehicles and
correct the problem?
I have already spoken to relivant peoples about this issue and was basically
told to nick off I don't know what I'm talking about.Funny how each of these
companies agreed that they had not stripped a unit down to investigate the
failure.It'sier and far more profitable to sell new replacement units.
I'd rather push my overheated HSE than drive a tojo
04' L322 Vogue 22' overfinch wheels
94' Classic Vogue Plus
93' Classic LSE
85' Classic
58' 88inch series 1 "Stella"
RX7 13b turbo 450bhp fast
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zem
136 posts · Joined 2005
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#11 · Mar 24, 2008
I have a 1995 HSE with 260,000km on the clock.
For a few months now I have lived with what I call 'missing breaks'.
I find that in the mornings it takes a while for the pump to boot up so my
breaks actually work. If I start her up and back out of the drive immediately I
am with little or no breaking.
Once I get moving (well when I need to come to a stop) I find that there is
about 2 inches of freeplay in the pedal that does NOT engage the break. I need
to take my foot off and press the pedal again to activate my breaks.
When I first press the pedal and it has that freeplay, it sort of 'clicks' and I
have to back off fast and press it again. I have managed with this as I
basically 'find' my break and pump it before I really need it. OK for everyday
driving however emergencies will not suffice.
I was also off road on a VERY step decline yesterday and realised this issue
needs to be addressed.
I have spoken to my LR mechanic (just a bloke in Romesy who actually gets cars
sent from LR - so he knows his stuff) and he said I will need to replace the
(now he name escapes me) ...brake pump??
I am VERY INTERESTED in this fix HSE.
What are the next steps?
Thanks mate.
- Zem (Melbourne)
1995 4.6 HSE :: 290,000km **New motor @ 280k **
2.5" sports exhaust (head turning note
Rhino alloy rack, Dual batteries,Toyo ATR's
Tartarini injected LPG (72Lt donut)
Camper Trailer with tinnie on roof
2004 Yamaha WRF250
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Barney Roveable
53 posts · Joined 2007
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#12 · Mar 24, 2008
I have experienced this problem first hand about 3 to 4 years ago. Unfortunately
for me it was while on holiday and ended up in some poor blokes front yard and
ran over his front tap. Let me tell you it is not a very pleasant experience.
The warning signs were there as leading up to this event the brakes were slower
to respond, and less effective. Basically it was operating on the back up (or
secondary) brake circuit as described in the RAVE manual. I did actually heed
these warnings and took it to the Range Rover mechanic who's solution was to
bleed the brakes (which did nothing) and then tell me that I needed new rotors
and pads.
Of course I believed them, not knowing what was about to happen. When it did let
go it was just as I put my foot on the pedal then I heard a massive release of
pressure noise from under the bonnet followed by a firm brake pedal however
absolutely no brakes. Once I came to a stop (very luckily without too much
damage) I opened the bonnet I inspected the fluid reservoir and noticed that all
of the fluid in the system appeared to have returned to the reservoir under
massive pressure and it had leaked out everywhere through the closed cap ( alot
of pressure to do that).
As you could imagine I felt that this was a pretty dangerous situation as if
this failure occurs you have ABSOLUTELY NO BRAKES!!! I of course sent e-mails to
Landrover Aust and Landrover itself expalining what had happened and explicitly
detailed my concerns that there cars may actually have a major and extremely
dangerous fault lurking there waiting to happen only to be told that I needed to
take the car to Landrover dealership to have the car repaired.
Disgraceful really as they obviously didn't even want to entertain the fact that
there was possibly a problem, but it didn't really suprise me. Of course I have
kept that e-mail corrospondence because even though I hadn't heard it actually
happening to anyone else I strongly felt there was a serious design flaw and
that it would happen again to other people.
I had my modulator replaced as I was told it was a throw away item. I luckily
picked up a replacement for basically nothing but that also has a problem as
described in the other thread by Rob HAYDEN on "ABS Issues". Anyway take it from
me there is potentially a major design flaw with these units that can result in
a malfunction that occurs without warning resulting in your car having no brakes
whatsoever (apart from handbrake).
Regards Barney
'95 HSE 4.6 - Love/Hate (Depending on the Day)
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Claude
57 posts · Joined 2006
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#13 · Mar 24, 2008
Is the component that fails the Shuttle Valve?
Robison Service has a short article about shuttle valve replacement for the
Discovery II : http://www.robisonservice.com/articles/RonR_aug2006.asp
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HSE Discussion starter
390 posts · Joined 2005
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#14 · Mar 24, 2008
zem, there is no point in buying a second hand unit as they have the same
plastic component that is failing.They are all the same up to mid 99 when BMW
made the bosch changes.You will pay around $1800.00 to $2500.00 plus fitting but
these units still have the problem.You may buy a year or two.A new unit is
$6000.00 plus fitting ect.The fix that I'm doing costs between $450 to $600
depending on the extent of the internal damage.The longer you leave it the
higher the probability of internal damage.
Russell.
I have sent this in a pm
I'd rather push my overheated HSE than drive a tojo
04' L322 Vogue 22' overfinch wheels
94' Classic Vogue Plus
93' Classic LSE
85' Classic
58' 88inch series 1 "Stella"
RX7 13b turbo 450bhp fast
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HSE Discussion starter
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#15 · Mar 24, 2008
Hi claude,
No the shuttle valve problem exists in the discovery II Wabco slabs unit which
is totally different to the P38 modulator.The P38 problem is more acute it
affects the hydraulic part of the modulator which causes a total loss of brakes
Russell.
I'd rather push my overheated HSE than drive a tojo
04' L322 Vogue 22' overfinch wheels
94' Classic Vogue Plus
93' Classic LSE
85' Classic
58' 88inch series 1 "Stella"
RX7 13b turbo 450bhp fast
Range Rover Solutions
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tonybig666
448 posts · Joined 2006
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#16 · Mar 24, 2008
Hi HSE how do I tell witch model mine is as mine is a 99 thanks
Tony
2012 TDV8
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HSE Discussion starter
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#17 · Mar 24, 2008
Hi HSE how do I tell witch model mine is as mine is a 99 thanks
Tony
Ok, does your car have 4 wheel traction control.Should be listed in you manual.
Russell.
I'd rather push my overheated HSE than drive a tojo
04' L322 Vogue 22' overfinch wheels
94' Classic Vogue Plus
93' Classic LSE
85' Classic
58' 88inch series 1 "Stella"
RX7 13b turbo 450bhp fast
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kyle h.
779 posts · Joined 2007
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#18 · Mar 24, 2008
This is interesting. Do you have any pictures of failed components, etc?
How do we go about getting the parts? Or are you only offering your services?
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wills
933 posts · Joined 2006
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#19 · Mar 25, 2008
> HSE said:
> Ok, does your car have 4 wheel traction control.Should be listed in you
> manual.
> Russell.
> Click to expand...
What happens if you have NO TC at all??
-Wills
98 Range Rover 2.5 DSE Auto
Faultmate MSV
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Chas
649 posts · Joined 2005
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#20 · Mar 25, 2008
Wills,
I suspect the qualifying condition is that if the vehicle is 99 and has four
wheel TC then it is fitted with the later Bosch Modulator.
If it's pre-99 then it automatically qualifies as 'possible failure'.
Yours, as '98 and no TC qualifies as 'possible failure'.
This is 'I suspect', I'll look to HSE to confirm one way or the other.
Cheers.
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Invalidsession
201 posts · Joined 2008
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#21 · Mar 25, 2008
This is a scary topic.
My 95 4.0 has had a rare but similar fault for the past two years.
Just occasionally, I have no pedal after startup.
It occurs only after sitting overnight and always is correctable with a couple
of pedal pumps. It might manifest itself every day for a week, then dissapear
for months.
I occasionally see the brake warning light, but only when the brakes are
applied. Since I know my pads are getting low (and very shortly to be replaced
along with the rotors,) I assumed that the warning system was bringing this to
my attention , but now, I am concerned about imminent total failure.
If LR are aware of this potential for disaster, it's pretty short sighted of
them to just casually blow it off, I dread to think what might happen if this
failure should occur with a car full of kids.
Lawsuit anyone ???
Current vehicles;
95 Range Rover 4.0 P38A
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Col
639 posts · Joined 2008
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#22 · Mar 25, 2008
If I understand this correctly you are saying any P38 manufactured before mid
1999 has the potential for complete brake failure. I imagine that would amount
to quite a few thousand vehicles in total around the world.
Obviously if Land Rover are aware of this problem they will chose to ignore it
due to the cost of recalling and repairing them all.
Perhaps if all owners of these vehicles voiced their concerns to the relevant
aurthorities in their location i.e the UK being VOSA we could get them to take
notice before someone is killed. I think there would have to be confirmed
instances of brakes failing and accidents happening though.
The other thing is if I buy a new modulator from Land Rover has it been modified
to prevent this happening or is it still the same with potential to fail again
in the future.
Apologies to all if I have gone off the original subject a little bit
Cheers
Col
Beer is living proof God loves us and wants us to be Happy. - Benjamin Franklin
1706-1790
Improvisation is the Mother of Invention
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wills
933 posts · Joined 2006
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#23 · Mar 25, 2008
> Col said:
> Obviously if Land Rover are aware of this problem they will chose to ignore it
> due to the cost of recalling and repairing them all.
> Click to expand...
But would they realllllly ignore it?? I seriously doubt they would risk such bad
publicity if this was such a serious problem. Even less so if it had been
reported to them. Could they REALLY take the risk and put peoples lives at
jeopardy by not recalling and sorting this issue out?? If it came out that they
had known about this and done nothing would there not be even more problems for
them??
> Col said:
> Perhaps if all owners of these vehicles voiced their concerns to the relevant
> authorities in their location i.e the UK being VOSA we could get them to take
> notice before someone is killed. I think there would have to be confirmed
> instances of brakes failing and accidents happening though.
> Click to expand...
This is why we need more info and details, we can't go reporting things we still
dont fully know about yet. I hope HSE can give us more info soon.
-Wills
98 Range Rover 2.5 DSE Auto
Faultmate MSV
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HSE Discussion starter
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#24 · Mar 25, 2008
Chas said
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wills,
I suspect the qualifying condition is that if the vehicle is 99 and has four
wheel TC then it is fitted with the later Bosch Modulator.
If it's pre-99 then it automatically qualifies as 'possible failure'.
Yours, as '98 and no TC qualifies as 'possible failure'.
This is 'I suspect', I'll look to HSE to confirm one way or the other.
Ok this is correct Chas. In answering the other question, the later (after mid
99 BMW/bosch changes)have corrected the problem and replaced the plastic
components with S/S.I have stripped one of these also to check.So you would have
to believe that wabco were or have been made aware of the fault.Kind of makes
the whole thing worse though???I have fitted a later 4 wheel traction control
unit to a 2 wheel traction control HSE and it's fine except a slight conflict
with the ecu.I'm trying to work that out.
This is still a costly way around the problem as I had to pay $3000.00aus for a
low klm unit out of a 2001 write off.
My fix for the existing units is by far the most cost effective, and basically
brings the unit up to 2001 specs as far as internal integrity is concerned.
Because I have recieved so many e-mails from OS regarding this I'm going to put
together a post out CD with instructions and photo's. This will allow the
confident tech to do the job yourself or take it to a workshop.This will be at a
reasonable cost and I will back up with support if needed.I can include the
needed parts to do the job.
Regards
Russell.
I'd rather push my overheated HSE than drive a tojo
04' L322 Vogue 22' overfinch wheels
94' Classic Vogue Plus
93' Classic LSE
85' Classic
58' 88inch series 1 "Stella"
RX7 13b turbo 450bhp fast
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RRToadHall
27964 posts · Joined 2006
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#25 · Mar 25, 2008
I would disagree totally with your approach and this style of "advertising" your
business. I can appreciate the heads up, but hinting that there might be an
issue without any detail is in poor taste.
For others that are doing legit business with members of this forum I think you
will find the exchange of information boosts their business. An excellent
example would be EAS issues and Dennis. Dennis is perfectly up front about which
components fail, how to fix them and freely offers up assistance and directions
on repairs. This exchange of information affords him a great deal of respect and
repeat business. In fact I will be placing a sizable order with him very soon.
Back to braking issues, I am very interested in your findings and what you have
to say. I would gladly purchase a repair kit of some kind from you if I knew
what was involved. However, such business definately will not be conducted in
the shadows with someone throwing up a red flag to drum up business. You have an
excellent chance to assist your P38 community and gain a great deal of business.
Perhaps a detailed write up for the main issues page and being a little more
forthcoming might be a more friendly approach. :lol:
If you cannot say what you mean, you will never mean what you say
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HSE Discussion starter
390 posts · Joined 2005
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#26 · Mar 25, 2008
You choose to call it avertising I call awarness of a vital componet failure.
I have already disclosed the componet to be a plastic part within the hydrualic
end of the modulator.To go into any more detail is pointless as it would appear
that no one hear has opened up a modulator so descriptions are probably not
going to mean too much
I do have a photo or two of the first modulator component that I found
faulty,I'll check if there are clear enough to post.
ps.Can someone give me instructions on have to attach the photo's to this thread
please.
Russell.
I'd rather push my overheated HSE than drive a tojo
04' L322 Vogue 22' overfinch wheels
94' Classic Vogue Plus
93' Classic LSE
85' Classic
58' 88inch series 1 "Stella"
RX7 13b turbo 450bhp fast
Range Rover Solutions
rangeroversolutions.com
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