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HomePodcastsSaving wildlife with AI, and randomized trials go remote
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SAVING WILDLIFE WITH AI, AND RANDOMIZED TRIALS GO REMOTE

 * 22 Aug 2024
 * 2:00 PM ET
 * By Sarah Crespi, Christine Peterson

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Related article
To reduce wildlife deaths caused by fences, scientists are turning to AI
BY Christine Peterson
News
16 Aug 2024

First up this week on the show, uncounted kilometers of fences are strung across
the globe. Researchers know they interfere with wildlife migrations and
sometimes make finding food and safety difficult for animals. But they don’t
know where all these fences are. Freelancer science journalist Christine
Peterson joins host Sarah Crespi to discuss how artificial intelligence and
aerial photos could help create fence inventories and eventually reopen spaces
for native species.

Next, Azizi Seixas, interim chair of the University of Miami Miller School of
Medicine’s department of informatics and health data science and a professor in
the department of psychiatry and behavioral sciences, discusses his review on
decentralized randomized trials. Randomized, controlled trials based in a
research center or centers have long been the gold standard for determining the
effectiveness of a medical intervention. This week on the podcast, Seixas argues
that distributed research designs with home-based measurements and reporting
have the potential to speed up research, allow greater participation, and make
the results of studies more equitable.

This week’s episode was produced with help from Podigy.

About the Science Podcast

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


TRANSCRIPT

0:00:05.8

Sarah Crespi: This is the Science Podcast for August 23rd, 2024. I'm Sarah
Crespi. First up this week, countless kilometers of fences cross the globe,
locking animal migration, sometimes penning wildlife away from food and safety.
Wyoming-based freelance writer Christine Peterson joins me to discuss how
conservationists can find the fences by using AI and aerial photography and then
make a plan to open the land once again for native species. Next up on the show,
Azizi Seixas talks about decentralizing clinical trials. Instead of having
participants commute into a research center, they are equipped with the supplies
and digital access they need to take part in research. The intent is to make
participation easier, trials speedier and more true to life. This week in
science, Wyoming based freelance journalist Christine Peterson wrote about a
novel use of artificial intelligence for conservation purposes, harnessing AI to
find fences in the western United States. Hi Christine, welcome to the Science
podcast.

0:01:15.1

Christine Peterson: Hi Sarah, thanks so much for having me.

0:01:17.5

SC: Oh sure. So can you set up the fence problem for us? Like why would we need
to find them? How are they lost, and why is it bad that we have fences? Or why
would scientists wanna find them?

0:01:28.8

CP: This is one of those funny hiding-in-plain-sight things. As someone who's
been in Wyoming for decades, fences are everywhere around the West, I'm staring
at them right now. And they're really useful, they keep cows where they belong,
they keep sheep where they belong, they separate property lines, they've been
here for centuries, but unlike roads, where agencies like the Forest Service or
the Bureau of Land Management or even private landowners, everyone has kept
track of where roads are. Nobody has ever kept track of fences, and so they just
are built when they're needed and sometimes they start to fall down, and more
are built in the same place, or they're built out of all kinds of different
materials that were available at the time. So now we are in a place where no one
has any idea how many fences there are, but when there have been a few number of
surveys done, one notable one in a county called Sublette County in Wyoming,
where the researcher mapped 7000 kilometers of fence just in that one county,
which as a reference is the length of the US-Mexico border out and back. So it's
double the length of the US-Mexico border just in one Wyoming county. The
problem becomes that every fence that an animal like a pronghorn or a mule deer
or an elk has to cross is a hurdle. So that's just one more barrier to them
getting to where they need to be.

0:02:55.7

SC: Are there any good examples of the impact of these stray fences or abandoned
fences on the animals that we're talking about?

0:03:02.1

CP: Yeah, there was, and this is in some ways the genesis of this story. But the
last winter, winter of 2023, was particularly harsh in stretches of Wyoming, it
was really snowy, it was very cold and very windy, and so there were periods
of... A lot of times in a winter, there are periods of reprieve, where some of
the snow melts and animals can get to ridge lines and can find a little bit of
food, that kinda thing. And there was a stretch of the red desert, which is a
big chunk of land in Central Western Wyoming, where collared pronghorn... There
were 45 pronghorn that had been collared for a project, started to die at the
end of the winter. And ultimately about half of the pronghorn died, thousands of
pronghorn in the overall herd height died. And when the researcher went out and
collected the collars that had fallen off, or still attached to these pronghorn
that had died, he uploaded the data and realized that they had just been
bouncing around.

0:04:01.1

CP: The maps almost looked like a ping pong ball, where they're just bouncing
back and forth and back and forth and back and forth up against fences. And some
of the fencing is along interstate, some of it's just pie traffic on the
interstate, and then a lot of it's just these fences in the middle of nowhere.
And some of them don't really need to be used anymore at all probably and some
of it still could be used, so there's efforts to replace it. But what he found
was one individual pronghorn which really stuck out had wandered well over 400
kilometers over the course of a winter looking for somewhere to go to escape the
snow but never managed to get more than about 50 kilometers away from where it
started. So it had just walked and walked and walked and walked and never really
got anywhere 'cause it was blocked all over the place.

0:04:48.1

SC: Sounds like it would be really difficult. Talking about 7000 kilometers in
one county alone, there's a vast expanse on the western end of the United
States. I can just imagine the fences adding up and adding up. How did this
research that you heard about from the Senckenberg Biodiversity and Climate
Research Center and the Microsoft AI for Good Lab... How do researchers from
there try to use AI to solve this problem?

0:05:14.4

CP: The project is in its very early stages, but the proof of concept is there,
which is what they presented at The Ecological Society of America conference
last week. For these initial stages, they used pictures taken from airplanes
that were at a resolution of 60 centimeters per pixel, which was enough to allow
AI to begin to identify fences from the air. So basically, then AI is able to
scan all of these images at rates much higher than a human could ever do to then
look for where fences are and where fences are to try to start building an
inventory.

0:05:51.7

SC: This is very early stages and the idea is to make a catalog, what would be
the next step? Would you then decide which ones to take down or who would have
to do that even?

0:06:05.0

CP: There are already efforts underway. There's a fair bit of money right now
looking at either taking down fences or also replacing them with
wildlife-friendly fencing. There's a lot of fence that's called woven wire. It
essentially looks like a whole bunch of squares in the bottom. And for a species
like pronghorn that prefers crawling under fences or mule deer, which about half
the time prefer crawling under fences, that's just impenetrable, they can't get
through. And so then in areas where you still need fence, 'cause you still have
cows that need to be contained or sheep need to be contained, you can replace
that woven wire with single strands that are a certain amount above the ground
and that allows pronghorn and mule deer to go underneath. So what happens with
this data then is it goes to land managers and conservationists, landowners to
work together to try to figure out and identify, Okay, here clearly these fences
are problematic and, do we need them anymore? Can we take them out? Do we just
need to replace them with fence that are easier for wildlife to cross?

0:07:11.8

SC: Right. So you can scope the project, you can figure out what the priorities
are.

0:07:15.9

CP: Yep.

0:07:16.4

SC: All that stuff. That's great. So I could see that they could make these like
large interconnected areas so the animals are able to move into spaces where
food might be more available in different parts of the winter.

0:07:29.2

CP: For sure. Yep. There is already a really large effort underway that has been
going on for some years now to map migration routes for wildlife and that
especially in big landscapes like the American West but also these big
rangeland, grassland systems all over the world in Tibet, Australia, chunks of
Africa, and those starting to get an idea of where animals are moving would like
to move. And then you can go in presumably with something like a fence inventory
and say, Okay, this is clearly an important migration route and we've got 27
fences that cross it, how can we work to make some of that easier for wildlife?

0:08:07.2

SC: We haven't actually talked about satellites. This initial study was using
photos from airplanes, but we do also have access to satellites, imagery of the
land. Would that be something that could be adapted to conducting a fence
inventory?

0:08:20.9

CP: Absolutely. Yep. That's where they hope to go next, is to start using
satellite images. Then they can expand it out more broadly around the West and
even around the world.

0:08:30.1

SC: Is this abandoned fence problem a universal thing? Is it not just the
American West?

0:08:35.8

CP: Yeah. And I guess just for the note, the abandoned fences is a... It's a
little bit more because a lot of these fences are still being used, where it's
one of those like Elise has. Elise has some property and hasn't maybe run cows
there in 10 years but still might want to. Some of them are still certainly in
use or could be in use, so it's not just abandoned fence, it's just fence in
general. But yes, there are fence... And there are fences going up... Still a
lot of fencing going up in a lot of places in the world, and so this is
definitely a global problem. And it's something that I think a lot of people
really wanna work on because it's a conservation issue that has some solutions
that especially if you're replacing it with wildlife-friendly fencing that in
some ways is almost a win-win because it allows somebody who needs the fence to
still have the fence but because it's been redone in a way that's good for
wildlife, it can still allow for some movement.

0:09:35.5

SC: Thinking about AI, it's just this hot topic, it's come up in so many
different fields over the past few years. What are some of the other ways that
artificial intelligence could be used to help with conservation? What are people
looking into there?

0:09:49.7

CP: Yeah, that's a great question. There's a lot going on, it looks like, and a
lot of it's still pretty early, but it's everything from one researcher I was
talking to, did a huge sound study with birds, he's beginning to use artificial
intelligence to then sort that out for him. And one point that a researcher made
that I felt was... He feels is very important, is that artificial intelligence
isn't... AI isn't going to be replacing human observation, it isn't going to be
replacing all the local knowledge and what humans know about the land and
wildlife and the environment. It's just a tool to help us be more efficient and
in a lot of ways, gather, categorize, inventory this huge amount of data that we
have in a way that then becomes useful or more useful for people to start making
decisions.

0:10:40.2

SC: I heard the same thing at MBARI, the marine research station now on the West
Coast. They have experts that can identify fish and coral and all kinds of stuff
underwater from video. But those are incredibly valuable people who can do that
and they could train AI to do it and then they just solve the tough cases, the
edge cases, and they don't spend all their time being like, Eel, eel, eel.

0:11:05.4

CP: Right. Exactly.

0:11:05.5

SC: It's definitely a possibility to think of it as a partnership that saves
that human experience for the tough stuff.

0:11:12.5

CP: Right. Yep. Absolutely.

0:11:14.3

SC: Very cool. All right, Christine, thanks so much for talking with me. This is
super interesting.

0:11:19.8

CP: Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate it.

0:11:22.5

SC: Christine Peterson is a freelance journalist based in Wyoming. You can find
a link to the story we discussed at science.org/podcast.

0:11:31.0

SC: Stay tuned for a discussion of how decentralized randomized controlled
trials could increase participation and improve outcomes.

0:11:44.3

SC: Randomized control trials based in a research center or centers have long
been the gold standard for determining how effective a medical intervention is,
but in a review this week in science, Azizi Seixas and colleagues argued that
decentralized randomized trials are the next step for medicine, that a
decentralized approach will speed up research, allow greater participation, and
make the results of studies more equitable.

0:12:08.6

SC: Hi Azizi, welcome to the science podcast.

0:12:10.3

Azizi Seixas: Thank you for having me, Sarah.

0:12:12.5

SC: Sure, so can you just start us off with the basics of what is the difference
between what we think of as a randomized control trial and a decentralized
randomized control trial, the DCT?

0:12:23.1

AS: Yeah. No, thank you so much. Really appreciate the opportunity to speak with
you and your audience. So typically, a randomized trial pretty much is where you
have different groups and you manipulate different exposures and you track over
time how people fare, how do they perform? Typically, those trials are very
site-specific and site-based, meaning a participant has to come into a health
system or a clinic or they have to go to some research environment that may not
reflect the person in the real-world environments. Contrastingly, a
decentralized trial allows us to still do the same types of procedures for the
most part, but instead of having it being site specific, that participant or
patient can do this from the comfort of their homes or their work or wherever.
And I think that, as you said, allows us to invite a whole lot more individuals
to participate.

0:13:27.3

SC: Yeah. You really think about... There's a lot of barriers to participating
in research, and part of it is where you live and how close you are to say a
research hospital. If you're rural, if you don't have a car, it's not gonna be
easy for you to get it. And that is actually changing the profile of the
populations that get involved in clinical trials.

0:13:49.0

AS: It's estimated by the FDA that less than 5% of eligible participants
actually engage or participate in a clinical trial, so then the question is,
what happens to that 95% and what are the barriers that might be preventing
people from engaging? Pharmaceutical companies, researchers, scientists, they
want to be able to capture a sample that is representative because they wanna
ensure that their findings and results are translatable and applicable to all,
for the most part. And decentralized trials, what it allows us to do is to
increase the opportunity and the level of access to the folks who say they are
unable to participate. So you mentioned transportation. It's noted that the
median travel time to a certified clinical site is about two hours. Like who has
that time, right?

0:14:50.4

SC: That's a sacrifice, that's dedication, that's commitment.

0:14:54.7

AS: Exactly.

0:14:56.3

SC: And we do want people to do that for science, but it might be asking a
little bit much.

0:15:01.6

AS: It is. I always jokingly say to our team, No one wakes up saying, I wanna
participate in a research study today.

0:15:09.8

SC: No. They do not. There's also this expectation that by increasing
participation, you might have more robust results. So does that address some of
the problems we see translating from like clinical trials that have such a
control population that are excluding people who can't get to a hospital, for
example, so they might have a comorbidity? Is this going to get us better
results from these incredibly expensive time-consuming endeavors?

0:15:33.8

AS: We believe it will provide better results, but let me qualify better
results. So what we say is that we believe in real-world data, because when you
look at one of the many challenges that fraught clinical trials and science in
general is the lack of replicability. And so what we argue is that the lack of
capturing real-world data may actually explain many of the discrepancies that we
see between studies. So real-world data encompasses a wide range of
health-related information such as electronic health records, claims data,
billing activities. And you can get it from different products, you could get it
from registries. Patient-generated data like wearables. And what it allows
researchers to do is that typically in very deterministic types of trials,
they're oftentimes very sterile, they don't reflect through someone's real
world, they're too controlled. And what we're saying is that yes, we can get a
little bit more innovative in capturing more noisy data so that we can capture
the individual in a 360-degree perspective. And I think that's the advantage of
real-world data. So for some of the science folks out there, this will allow you
to be able to test confounding effects, artifactual effects.

0:17:06.1

SC: One thing that comes up in the review is the digitization of a lot of this
process, so having people in their homes answering questionnaires or vlogging
progress or even as you say, wearing something that's monitoring certain vitals.
Even though it sounds really important to decentralizing things, it sounds like
it might have some challenges for patients or for researchers looking to
standardize this.

0:17:32.0

AS: Absolutely. We tried our best to not necessarily present decentralized
trials as a panacea that can cure all the ills that fraught clinical trials. By
no means. Decentralized trials also has significant limitations as well. And
some of these have to do, as you say, the digitization... And if we unpack
digitization, you're talking access to these types of digital devices. And what
we highlight is a model that we have created at the University of Miami, it's
called YOU DECIDE.

0:18:08.5

SC: It's an acronym, just so people will know. Yeah. Okay.

0:18:10.4

AS: It's that acronym. It's YOU DECIDE. Exactly. YOU DECIDE framework addresses
issues around digital literacy, as well as digital divide, as well as providing
social care solutions, because we know that when a participant or a patient is
noncompliant or not adherent to the procedures of a study, it probably has
nothing to do with their cognitive ability or level of understanding or any of
those types of things. It may have to do with lack of access to a cell phone or
a mobile device or lack of broadband and internet. Or they may just be
challenged because they're working two, three jobs and they don't have the
transportation or they can't pay for their utilities. And so we provide
additional supports around those to address those as best as we can.

0:19:01.7

SC: Right. So if you're recruiting people who are 80-plus into your study and
you're like, Here's the cell phone app that you need to install and here's the
wearable that you need to update your drivers, you're just really setting them
up to...

0:19:13.0

AS: To fail.

0:19:14.1

SC: To fail. And so if you have support for that... And similarly, as someone
doesn't have stable internet, which we saw a lot during COVID, when students
like were, I'm from Indiana. They didn't have a dedicated device that they could
use at home for schooling when that was suddenly required of them. That kind of
lack of access is also something that needs to be considered when you're
digitizing your trial.

0:19:34.2

AS: Absolutely. We recognize as well that when you have ubiquitous assessment
and engagement with participants, it can lead to participant burden and
engagement, that people will tap out. Are you gonna be sending another text
message?

0:19:49.4

SC: Oh no. Yeah.

0:19:51.4

AS: People will tune out. That's another thing. And we also describe the fact
that there are decentralized trials, but then you also have a subset of
digitally facilitated trials as well.

0:20:04.1

SC: Like a hybrid.

0:20:05.1

AS: Exactly. And they're not the same. And so one of the things that we speak
about is the lack of standardization in how the procedure of decentralized
trials should go. And we highlight this in seven core stages of research, from
recruitment to screening, to informed consent to randomizing and assigning
people, and then exposure to intervention and monitoring and providing incentive
and study debrief.

0:20:34.9

SC: Yeah. I do wanna ask you about this Tufts study that you mentioned, Tufts,
the university in Boston that mentioned about like evaluating how decentralized
trials fit in the big picture of pushing things from the lab to the clinic to
the public. Can you talk a little bit about that?

0:20:48.4

AS: So this was a study where they wanted to look at the return on investment.
How do you make the business case for decentralized trials? One of things that
you want to be able to establish is whether or not if the decentralized trials
can help to reduce costs. And that's huge, right?

0:21:09.1

SC: Because we're talking about maybe giving people hotspots and cell phones and
training them on things. Is that saving you money rather than having a clinical
center with staff that just come in and type it in the computer for you?

0:21:19.0

AS: Exactly. Typically, when people spoke about providing a value, what's the
value add of decentralized trials? Typically, we will always keep it either very
practical, from an administrative standpoint, like, It will help with this, it
would increase efficiency. And then also people philosophically would say,
Decentralized trials, it makes a lot of intuitive sense, who wouldn't agree to
the fact that you want to subscribe to some kind of modality that would allow
people to participate and reduce barriers? I think what the Turf study did, just
to sum it up, is that they were able to provide what the economic investment is
and what the ROI was for them in terms of looking at what the net present value
is. So they found that... I believe that they found a $10 million return on a $2
million investment in phase two trials, and about a $39 million return on a $3
million investment on phase three trials.

0:22:21.3

SC: And this came out of speeding things up in a lot of cases.

0:22:25.2

AS: We saw this really during the COVID vaccine trials, right?

0:22:29.9

SC: Yeah.

0:22:30.7

AS: Because we were able to say, We can have this incremental amount of
investment to set up the infrastructures, and not just the infrastructure but to
ensure that the dissemination and implementation aspects of a study is well
oiled. And they were able to show that a return on investment is... And I think
that's where beans research, research scientists and executives love these kind
of pharmaceutical companies. Is why I think most of them really consider
decentralized trials as a potential success story for them to embrace. And I
think that's one of the values of that Tufts study, and we highlight that in our
people.

0:23:12.4

SC: If people take this up, how does it fit with how we regulate clinical
studies? That's something that multiple governments all over the world... They
wanna have a look in and make sure that things are safe, they're private, that
they're meeting standards. Is that something that you have to worry about
differently with decentralized clinical trials?

0:23:29.1

AS: I think you do for a variety of reasons, but I don't think you abandon your
foundational principles of doing good ethical research. What we highlight in the
paper are the challenges that we see with big-data generation, data transfer,
HIPAA compliance, or whether if you're in Europe or elsewhere, whatever the
governance of that... Do you set up a governance structure as to who owns those
data? Is the patients who owns those data or is it the research scientists or
the funders? And we tried to, we didn't have a lot of Caper real estate to go
into detail.

0:24:09.2

SC: No. You never do.

0:24:11.9

AS: So we tried to highlight those as areas that still need critical assessment,
and we need some policies around that to then translate those into practical
applications.

0:24:25.9

SC: We're gonna talk about studying studies, so what do you think... What kind
of research, what kind of new data do you need to better design and implement
decentralized clinical trials? What do you wanna learn more about, or what kind
of research is being done into this that you think is important?

0:24:41.1

AS: Wow, this is a good question. I think where we are headed, it's not just the
new types of data, so we talk about... In my capacity as chair of informatics on
health data science, in our research vertical, we focus on what we call "digital
biomarkers." When you look at disease and health, it's never black and white,
the progression of disease is on a continuum. And what we want to be able to do
as researchers is to focus on prevention and not just management, and what will
allow us to be able to prevent diseases, to be able to predict who will get
those disease. And so if we try and figure out the periods of the onset of
disease, and if a decentralized trial, whether it be through digital biomarkers,
will allow us to capture things far earlier than we would have previously, then
that would significantly lead to reductions in prevalence and instance rates of
chronic conditions and other types of health conditions. We are focusing on
traditional types of biometric signals that can be captured over a period of
time called "digital biomarkers," but we are seriously investing our resources
on time in what we call more virtual immersive technologies because it's very
likely at some point, we'll be able to start capturing auras, right?

0:26:13.2

SC: Okay.

0:26:13.3

AS: No, here's why.

0:26:14.3

SC: Technical auras, right?

0:26:16.8

AS: Technical auras.

0:26:17.4

SC: Technical. Scientific auras.

0:26:18.2

AS: Yeah. Well, so here's the deal. Someone who has a migraine, what is
typically the triggering symptom that migraine patients typically talk about
when they know they're gonna get the migraine? Feel these auras. But how do we
measure those? Is it just through subjective report? So wouldn't it be cool if
we have some form of device, some solution that will be able to structure the
onset of those types of physiological auras where people no longer have to
suffer?

0:26:49.7

SC: There is some kind of... We don't know how to call it, but a state that's
measured through many, many different facets that has appeared as a signal when
you had enough data from tracking enough people.

0:27:01.5

AS: Exactly. And I think not just what we wanna capture, but what we're looking
at, which we try to focus on in the paper, is not just the discovery piece but
the translational aspects of it. So what we're working on, which we didn't
really say this much in the paper, is that we're using our decentralized studies
to capture as much data where we can build digital twins of people so that we
can start focusing more on precision medicine and the construct that we created
called Precision and personalized population health.

0:27:34.4

SC: Okay. Thank you so much, Azizi.

0:27:36.3

AS: Thank you, Sarah. Much appreciated. Thanks for having me.

0:27:39.0

SC: Azizi Seixas is the interim chair of the Department of Informatics and
Health Data Science and a professor in the Department of Psychiatry and
Behavioral Sciences at the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine. You
can find a link to the review that we discussed at science.org/podcast.

0:27:56.5

SC: And that concludes this edition of the Science Podcast, if you have any
comments or suggestions, write to us at sciencepodcast@aaas.org. We also see
comments on Spotify. You can listen there or Overcast or Apple Podcast. To find
us on those apps, search for "Science Magazine" or you can listen on our
website, science.org/podcast. This show was edited by me, Sarah Crespi, and
Kevin McLean. We had production help from Megan Tuck at Podigy. Our music is by
Jeffrey Cook and Wen Koi Wen. On behalf of Science and its publisher, AAAS,
thanks for joining us.

doi:10.1126/science.z6rlb01


ABOUT THE AUTHOR

SARAH CRESPI

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AUTHOR

Sarah Crespi is the Senior Multimedia Producer at Science and host of the
Science Magazine Podcast.

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CHRISTINE PETERSON

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Christine Peterson is a freelance journalist in Laramie, Wyoming, covering
wildlife and the environment.

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