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MARTIN SCORSESE STILL HAS STORIES TO TELL

TIME100 Leadership Series | Martin Scorsese

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By Stephanie Zacharek
September 12, 2023 7:00 AM EDT

Martin Scorsese is wearing a blue shirt. It’s a nothing-special medium-dark
blue, at least as it’s backlit by the afternoon sun streaming through the
window. But later, in the crisp-soft light of the screening room located in his
office, it becomes a blue of a different color, a hue you see most commonly in
wildflowers, and in the movies. Almost iridescent, it shimmers toward purple; in
an unreal sky, it would be the shifting point between dusk and outer space. It’s
proof of the illusory nature of color, but as metaphors go, it’s a humble one, a
trick of cloth and dye and light. Let’s call it—after the ace cinematographer
behind the Technicolor marvels of Michael Powell and Emeric Pressburger, among
Scorsese’s favorites—Jack Cardiff Blue.



Color is important to nearly all filmmakers, but Scorsese may be more attuned
than most to both its language and its evanescence. In 1990, having been alarmed
for decades by the deterioration of so many aging film prints, he established
the Film Foundation, a nonprofit dedicated to preserving film history. In his
screening room, we watch a clip outlining the restoration of Powell and
Pressburger’s The Red Shoes, which Scorsese saw with his father in the theater
when he was 8. It’s transportive to watch Moira Shearer leaping and pirouetting,
her image freed from the murky mold damage that had been digitally removed from
the negative. The before-and-after comparison illustrates why it’s crucial for
the entities that own these films to ensure they’re around for future
generations. “This means a lot to a lot of people, spiritually, culturally,” he
says. “Like reading a book.”

Photograph by Mark Mahaney for TIME

Scorsese’s encyclopedic knowledge of film has made him the patron saint of film
bros, and though it’s a title he most certainly never asked for, he’s happy to
talk about movies for as long as you like. But the stories he tells me during
our three-hour interview—about falling in love with westerns as an asthmatic
kid, or about his Aunt Mary taking him to a double bill of Bambi and Jacques
Tourneur’s great obsessive noir Out of the Past at age 6—are about so much more
than movies. Even people who love movies often talk about them in a way that
disconnects them from life; it’s easier to jaw on about camera angles than it is
to explain how a film speaks to our soul. Scorsese can articulate all of it.



There are still many of us who see the past, present, and future of film as a
continuous, regenerative strand, who find pleasure in the filmmaking of the past
even as we harbor hopes for its future. If you think that way, you might imagine
everyone does. But the reality is more dismal. Content is king, and
entertainment billionaires want to keep shoveling it our way, at the lowest
possible cost to themselves. In their eyes, we’re no longer moviegoers—a word
that, in 2023, has a painfully romantic ring to it—but consumers of content, and
the consumers have spoken: They want art on their own terms. Their fandom must
be served. Both moguls and audiences are leaning into their worst impulses.
Scorsese hesitates to use the word art when he’s talking about movies; he knows
how it sounds, and he knows as well as anyone who’s seen a double bill of Out of
the Past and Bambi that art and entertainment can blur and fuse, wonderfully.
But the very idea of movie artistry is in crisis, and it doesn’t look as if it’s
getting better anytime soon. Scorsese is worried about that, and if you care
about movies, you should be worried too.



Read More: How Scorsese Made a Film That Went Against Hollywood’s Rules

“It should be one cinematic culture, you know? But right now everything is being
fragmented and broken up in a way.” We’ve always had film genres, he says, but
when he was growing up, people who loved movies would just go. “Not everybody
liked musicals. Not everybody liked westerns. Not everybody liked gangster films
or noirs. But at the time, we just went to the movies, and that’s what was
playing.” By itself, knowing a lot about film means nothing. That bank of
knowledge needs to be entwined with curiosity about the world; seemingly
definitive answers lead only to more questions.

Director Martin Scorsese in New York City on Aug. 8, 2023.
Photograph by Mark Mahaney for TIME

And that right there may be the key to being Scorsese. At 80, he seems eager to
fit everything together: not just the movies he’s seen or made, but the books
he’s read over a lifetime, the seemingly random encounters he’s had at turning
points in his life, the evolving, unfinished project of his own spirituality,
shaped largely, but not only, by Catholicism. Intertwined with all of this
exploration and self–examination are the movies he still hopes to make, and the
finished one that, at the time of our conversation, is about to be released in
theaters: an emotionally intense adaptation of David Grann’s 2017 Killers of the
Flower Moon, about the sinister, systematic murder of members of the
Osage Nation in early 1920s Oklahoma, by white locals who sought to gobble up
oil-rich Osage land—a story Scorsese calls “a sober look at who we are as a
culture.”



Projects like Killers are part of why he’s spent his career pushing for
something that can only be called a radical truth—certainly in the films he
makes, but even more so in his everyday reckoning with the world. Plenty of
young filmmakers want to be the next Scorsese; few have any sense of what the
act of becoming entails.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scorsese found his way to Killers of the Flower Moon shortly after filming his
2016 picture Silence, about Portuguese Jesuit missionaries facing a crisis of
faith in 17th century Japan. Something about the juxtaposition of “flower moon”
and “killers” in the title struck him: “It was an impression, like a haiku,
almost.” He slipped right into Grann’s book, and knew he wanted to film it.



Killers of the Flower Moon, which arrives exclusively in theaters on Oct. 20
before streaming on Apple TV+, is a grave, urgent picture, less overtly violent
than the films—Taxi Driver, Goodfellas, Raging Bull—that helped build Scorsese’s
reputation, yet perhaps more attuned than any of his movies to the insidious,
selfish nature of human beings. It’s about a different kind of violence, born of
greed, racism, and a sense of entitlement. But it’s also about a marriage,
between the characters played by Leonardo DiCaprio and the extraordinary Lily
Gladstone. DiCaprio is the sometimes sweet, sometimes wily World War I veteran
Ernest Burkhart, in thrall to his seemingly magnanimous uncle, big-shot
cattleman William K. Hale (Robert De Niro). Gladstone plays the Osage woman he
marries and builds a life with, the former Mollie Kyle. The oil rights on her
land have made her rich, but she watches in anguish as members of her family
begin to mysteriously die off; her own health deteriorates as well, at an
alarming rate.

Scorsese with Lily Gladstone and Leonardo DiCaprio on the Killers of the Flower
Moon set.
Courtesy of Apple

Grann’s book focuses largely on the birth of the Bureau of Investigation—now
known as the FBI—and specifically on one of its most upstanding agents, Tom
White (played by Jesse Plemons). Originally, DiCaprio was supposed to play
White. But something about that framework bothered both him and Scorsese. “After
a certain point, I realized I was making a movie about all the white guys,”
Scorsese says. “Meaning I was taking the approach from the outside in, which
concerned me.” Eventually, he and DiCaprio realized that the heart of the movie
wasn’t the birth of the FBI, but the love story between Ernest and Mollie. That
became the film’s core.



That shift in perspective also opened space for one of the film’s greatest
performances, from Gladstone. In her, Scorsese says, there’s “a fierceness and
serenity at the same time. And it’s encased in this intelligence—the eyes say it
all.” Gladstone also spurred some of the movie’s finest improvised dialogue.
Early in Ernest and Mollie’s courtship, she calls him a coyote, but in Osage.
DiCaprio, in character and, as always, quick on his feet, counters with an
unscripted line: “You must mean handsome devil.” Gladstone laughs, just as
Mollie might have in real life. The moment made it into the movie, because you
can’t buy that kind of spontaneity.

Read More: The 35 Most Anticipated Movies of Fall 2023

Not only is this story drawn from fairly recent history; it’s also part of a
community’s painful past, filmed largely in Pawhuska, Okla., not far from
Fairfax, where the events occurred—places where the descendants of the story
still live, carrying memories of their forebears. Chad Renfro, an interior
designer who grew up in the area with Osage grandparents, became involved in the
production at the start, eventually becoming a consulting producer. The story
told in Killers of the Flower Moon, horrific enough by itself, is part of a much
larger pattern. “Marty made a story of trust and betrayal,” Renfro says. This
community had suffered so many betrayals, he explains, “over hundreds of years
of dealing with governmental agencies, and people who came in and took advantage
of us.” It was understandable that Osage from the area—from Pawhuska, Gray
Horse, and Hominy—would be wary of a white filmmaker coming in to tell their
story, particularly one whose films are so often charged with violence.



Scorsese and his team worked closely with Osage Principal Chief Geoffrey
Standing Bear and his office, Renfro says, and hundreds of Osage were involved
in making the film. “The first day of filming, we had an elder, Archie Mason,
come and say a prayer,” Renfro says. That amazed and thrilled some of the cast
and crew; they’d never before started a film with a prayer.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spending time with Scorsese—listening to his ideas unspool in stanzas that are
somehow both operatic and streetwise-colloquial, shot through with spirited
digressions and invisible exclamation points—is great fun, but you’ve got to pay
attention. He talks fast and covers a lot of ground. Even his office decor
speaks of a sensibility that can’t be reduced to bite-size quotes: dozens of
family photographs share space with vintage movie posters—there’s one for
Vincente Minnelli’s juicy 1952 movie-biz masterpiece The Bad and the Beautiful
hanging right behind his desk. There are books everywhere, but also an enviable
collection of Classics Illustrated, comic-book versions of great works (The
Iliad, Moby-Dick) that fired up lots of little brains from the ’40s through the
’60s.



It’s a place where the past merges seamlessly with the present, and where ideas
seem to hang in the air, which perhaps explains why Scorsese has so many of
them. But it’s a fallacy, albeit probably a common one, that he has always been
able to make any movie he wants, whenever he wants, with bounteous funding.
Silence was on hold for years, thanks to what Scorsese calls a Gordian knot of
legal problems and rights issues. He was supposed to begin filming The Last
Temptation of Christ in 1983, but the project, controversial from the beginning,
fell apart. Though he was able to make the picture four years later, he had to
make do with a small fraction of its original budget.

Directing Robert De Niro in Raging Bull (1980), and Andrew Garfield in Silence
(2016).
Everett Collection (2)

That’s a long way of saying he knows all about the connection between filmmaking
artistry and the more prosaic art of dealmaking. He also understands that
commercial pressures are more brutal than ever. “Young people expressing
themselves with moving images, they’re going to find a way to be seen,” he says.
“But they have to fight, they have to really, really fight and not be co-opted.”
He worries that the blockbuster ethos, as it’s currently playing out, may mean
the end of personal filmmaking. He spins this observation into a rueful joke
about how he and his cohorts Francis Ford Coppola and Michael Cimino were viewed
after they’d made complex, ambitious films that tried the patience of studio
heads. “Ultimately, they say, ‘Well, who wants personal filmmaking? Look what
happened in the ’70s. By the end of it, you all went mad! And you went over
budget and schedule, and you made these three movies, Apocalypse Now, Raging
Bull, and Heaven’s Gate!’” The point is that a filmmaker’s vision—the very thing
that makes him distinctive—is what’s held against him when the money doesn’t
roll in.



Scorsese seems driven to open the world to people the way others have opened it
to him. “You know, I was lucky because my parents were really good with me and
my brother. And we were part of a very big family.” There wasn’t much money, and
his New York City neighborhood was sometimes rough, populated by the kinds of
street toughs who would later find a place in his movies. But he knew nothing
but love at home. “The real love that I found, acted out as best as possible
under the circumstances, was in that apartment on Elizabeth Street.”

Read More: Martin Scorsese’s Masterful The Irishman Is a Moving Portrait of
Betrayal and Regret

He speaks, as he often has in interviews, of Father Francis Principe, the
progressive young priest assigned to Scorsese’s neighborhood when he was a kid,
an altar boy who was simultaneously attracted to Catholicism and unsure how it
connected with real life. Father Principe would take Scorsese and his fellow
altar boys to the movies, and they’d discuss what they’d just seen. He
introduced the kids to writers—Graham Greene, Dwight Macdonald—they wouldn’t
have otherwise read. There are reasons, maybe, why so much of Scorsese’s
work—including Killers of the Flower Moon—seems to seek a role for the spiritual
self in a hostile, almost inhuman world. “How does human decency, or how does
love even come into the picture?” he wonders aloud.



He talks about the time, in 2010, he took a rare vacation in Egypt and visited
St. Catherine’s Monastery, in Sinai. It’s located right near the spot where
Moses received the tablets; the burning bush is nearby. “It’s no longer burning,
but it’s there,” Scorsese says.

As he and his wife Helen and daughter Francesca wound through these dark,
6th century corridors, a maze of white walls with small windows dotted with
paintings and cases of artifacts, they turned a corner and a vision—or perhaps
it was a challenge—lit up in their path. “All three of us were, like, stunned,”
he says. The specter before them wasn’t a ghost at all, but one of the oldest
Byzantine icons, an almost life-size encaustic painted on a rounded surface,
lifelike and mystical at once, known as the Christ Pantocrator. Symmetry is
pleasing in art, which makes the asymmetry of the Christ Pantocrator at least
slightly unnerving: one eye is larger than the other, and Scorsese found himself
in a stare-down. “The look, you know, the look was a loving sort of
confrontational look. Like, who are you? What are you doing with your life? Who
are you? What next? All these questions. Like, what, what, what do I do?
It shook me, in a way.”

Scorsese’s new movie, Killers of the Flower Moon, continues his quest for
radical truth.
Photograph by Mark Mahaney for TIME

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mention Scorsese’s name, and everyone wants to talk about Taxi Driver,
Goodfellas, Raging Bull—or maybe, even, about the delightful cameos he makes in
Francesca’s TikTok videos. (In one of them, she asks him to identify common
“feminine items,” among them an eyelash curler and a Beautyblender.) A surer way
to clear out a dinner party is to bring up Silence, or Kundun, Scorsese’s ardent
1997 film about the life of the Dalai Lama, or, heaven forbid, The Last
Temptation of Christ, which drew ire upon its release for its suggestion that
Jesus wanted to sleep with Mary Magdalene. But those movies aren’t just outliers
in Scorsese’s body of work. In their questioning spirit, they may be
foundational for everything else, up to and including Killers of the Flower
Moon, a picture that peers, deeply and uncomfortably, into the inhumanity of
humans, knowing there’s no valid way to ask the forgiveness of those who’ve been
wronged.



Scorsese has lots of movie projects he wants to get to, among them an adaptation
of Marilynne Robinson’s Home. He would also like to make another movie about
Jesus, as he alluded last May, after having met with Pope Francis. “I don’t know
what it’s going to be, exactly. I don’t know what you’d call it. It wouldn’t be
a straight narrative.” It would, he suggests, build on some of the ideas he
explored in Silence. “But there would be staged scenes. And I’d be in it.”

It sounds, frankly, unfilmable—all the more reason to believe he’ll pull it off.
The Christ Pantocrator will somehow be a part of Scorsese’s Jesus movie; he’s
not quite sure how he’s going to get there, but he will. What is he doing with
his life? He’s spent a lifetime figuring that out, and he’s nowhere close to
being finished. The bush is still there; it’s still burning.

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   Advertising presented to you on this service can be based on your advertising
   profiles, which can reflect your activity on this service or other websites
   or apps (like the forms you submit, content you look at), possible interests
   and personal aspects.
   
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 * CREATE PROFILES TO PERSONALISE CONTENT 211 PARTNERS CAN USE THIS PURPOSE
   
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   Information about your activity on this service (for instance, forms you
   submit, non-advertising content you look at) can be stored and combined with
   other information about you (such as your previous activity on this service
   or other websites or apps) or similar users. This is then used to build or
   improve a profile about you (which might for example include possible
   interests and personal aspects). Your profile can be used (also later) to
   present content that appears more relevant based on your possible interests,
   such as by adapting the order in which content is shown to you, so that it is
   even easier for you to find content that matches your interests.
   
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 * USE PROFILES TO SELECT PERSONALISED CONTENT 188 PARTNERS CAN USE THIS PURPOSE
   
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   Content presented to you on this service can be based on your content
   personalisation profiles, which can reflect your activity on this or other
   services (for instance, the forms you submit, content you look at), possible
   interests and personal aspects, such as by adapting the order in which
   content is shown to you, so that it is even easier for you to find
   (non-advertising) content that matches your interests.
   
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 * MEASURE ADVERTISING PERFORMANCE 655 PARTNERS CAN USE THIS PURPOSE
   
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   Information regarding which advertising is presented to you and how you
   interact with it can be used to determine how well an advert has worked for
   you or other users and whether the goals of the advertising were reached. For
   instance, whether you saw an ad, whether you clicked on it, whether it led
   you to buy a product or visit a website, etc. This is very helpful to
   understand the relevance of advertising campaigns.
   
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 * MEASURE CONTENT PERFORMANCE 334 PARTNERS CAN USE THIS PURPOSE
   
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   Information regarding which content is presented to you and how you interact
   with it can be used to determine whether the (non-advertising) content e.g.
   reached its intended audience and matched your interests. For instance,
   whether you read an article, watch a video, listen to a podcast or look at a
   product description, how long you spent on this service and the web pages you
   visit etc. This is very helpful to understand the relevance of
   (non-advertising) content that is shown to you.
   
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 * UNDERSTAND AUDIENCES THROUGH STATISTICS OR COMBINATIONS OF DATA FROM
   DIFFERENT SOURCES 413 PARTNERS CAN USE THIS PURPOSE
   
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   Reports can be generated based on the combination of data sets (like user
   profiles, statistics, market research, analytics data) regarding your
   interactions and those of other users with advertising or (non-advertising)
   content to identify common characteristics (for instance, to determine which
   target audiences are more receptive to an ad campaign or to certain
   contents).
   
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 * DEVELOP AND IMPROVE SERVICES 501 PARTNERS CAN USE THIS PURPOSE
   
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   Information about your activity on this service, such as your interaction
   with ads or content, can be very helpful to improve products and services and
   to build new products and services based on user interactions, the type of
   audience, etc. This specific purpose does not include the development or
   improvement of user profiles and identifiers.
   
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 * USE LIMITED DATA TO SELECT CONTENT 102 PARTNERS CAN USE THIS PURPOSE
   
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   Content presented to you on this service can be based on limited data, such
   as the website or app you are using, your non-precise location, your device
   type, or which content you are (or have been) interacting with (for example,
   to limit the number of times a video or an article is presented to you).
   
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USE PRECISE GEOLOCATION DATA 248 PARTNERS CAN USE THIS PURPOSE

Use precise geolocation data

With your acceptance, your precise location (within a radius of less than 500
metres) may be used in support of the purposes explained in this notice.

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ACTIVELY SCAN DEVICE CHARACTERISTICS FOR IDENTIFICATION 121 PARTNERS CAN USE
THIS PURPOSE

Actively scan device characteristics for identification

With your acceptance, certain characteristics specific to your device might be
requested and used to distinguish it from other devices (such as the installed
fonts or plugins, the resolution of your screen) in support of the purposes
explained in this notice.

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ENSURE SECURITY, PREVENT AND DETECT FRAUD, AND FIX ERRORS 478 PARTNERS CAN USE
THIS PURPOSE

Always Active

Your data can be used to monitor for and prevent unusual and possibly fraudulent
activity (for example, regarding advertising, ad clicks by bots), and ensure
systems and processes work properly and securely. It can also be used to correct
any problems you, the publisher or the advertiser may encounter in the delivery
of content and ads and in your interaction with them.

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DELIVER AND PRESENT ADVERTISING AND CONTENT 467 PARTNERS CAN USE THIS PURPOSE

Always Active

Certain information (like an IP address or device capabilities) is used to
ensure the technical compatibility of the content or advertising, and to
facilitate the transmission of the content or ad to your device.

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MATCH AND COMBINE DATA FROM OTHER DATA SOURCES 317 PARTNERS CAN USE THIS PURPOSE

Always Active

Information about your activity on this service may be matched and combined with
other information relating to you and originating from various sources (for
instance your activity on a separate online service, your use of a loyalty card
in-store, or your answers to a survey), in support of the purposes explained in
this notice.

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LINK DIFFERENT DEVICES 307 PARTNERS CAN USE THIS PURPOSE

Always Active

In support of the purposes explained in this notice, your device might be
considered as likely linked to other devices that belong to you or your
household (for instance because you are logged in to the same service on both
your phone and your computer, or because you may use the same Internet
connection on both devices).

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IDENTIFY DEVICES BASED ON INFORMATION TRANSMITTED AUTOMATICALLY 449 PARTNERS CAN
USE THIS PURPOSE

Always Active

Your device might be distinguished from other devices based on information it
automatically sends when accessing the Internet (for instance, the IP address of
your Internet connection or the type of browser you are using) in support of the
purposes exposed in this notice.

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