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INTERVIEW "WIZARDRY JUST HAD A KIND OF SOUL" - HOW DIGITAL ECLIPSE BROUGHT THE
RPG CLASSIC INTO THE MODERN-AGE

"There were so many firsts with this game"

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 * by Jack Yarwood Mon 12th Aug 2024

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Image: Digital Eclipse

When it comes to the history of RPGs, few games can claim to have been as
inspirational in establishing the conventions of the genre as Wizardry: Proving
Grounds of the Mad Overlord.

Originally released for the Apple II in 1981, the game was one of the first
examples of a Dungeons & Dragons style role-playing game created for home
computers and later went on to inspire the likes of Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest,
and Demon Souls. Primarily developed by the legendary developers Andrew
Greenberg and Robert Woodhead under the company Sir-Tech, it was eventually
ported to countless other platforms (including MS-DOS, NES, SNES, PlayStation
Sega Saturn, alongside many others), with many of these versions being exclusive
to Japan due to the game's phenomenal popularity in the region.



For the last couple of decades, the original game has not been readily available
commercially, with the series instead being subject to various Japanese
follow-ups and spin-offs (some of which have also been localized into English).
Last September, however, Digital Eclipse announced that it had partnered with
two of the original rights holders Norman and Robert Sirotek, alongside the
video game investor/IP holder Justin Bailey to create a remastered version of
the classic. This launched in Early Access last year and has since hit 1.0 on
May 23rd, 2024 across Nintendo Switch, PS4, PS5, Xbox One, Xbox Series X|S, and
PC, receiving an amazing 9/10 review from our friends at Nintendo Life.

As a result, we took it upon ourselves recently to reach out to Norman and
Robert Sirotek, as well as Justin Bailey to find out more about how this classic
title was resurrected. You can read part one of our interview with Norman,
Robert, and Justin Bailey below (edited for length and clarity), which focuses
on the remaster. A part two of sorts will be released in the future and will
cover the original Apple II release as well as the initial commercialization of
the game in Japan. Enjoy!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Time Extension: Let's start with the most obvious question. Why did you finally
decide to bring back Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord now? Why all
these years later?

Robert: So we knew the game was special and we knew we wanted to remaster it. It
was just a question of when. I started getting calls after calls and emails and
this sort of thing by users saying, 'You should take this game and remaster it
and do something with it' and I kind of dismissed it because I was into
something else at the time. But as the years clicked by, a fellow that we used
to work with contacted us and encouraged me to look at this more seriously. They
were one of the co-founders at Interplay. And, you know, I said, 'Okay'. So I
started looking at it a little more seriously. But our vision to do it in a
grand way required the talents of a particular studio and the breadth of a
particular studio. So we started looking. And we then met Justin through Brian
Fargo, who was another person responsible for the creation of Interplay.



Bailey: So Brian Fargo is a person I worked with a lot at Fig when I headed that
up. I talked to him many times throughout the remaster of Bard's Tale. And I
always assessed that if he was gonna do that, 'Dude, you should just go all out
and do a huge one'. And we had talked about that. We talked about how much
passion there was around Bard's Tale 1. And that reward tier he ended up having
on his Kickstarter for Bard's Tale 4 ended up going so well for remastering 1,
2, and 3 that when we talked about it later, we were like, 'Wow, that probably
could have been its own Kickstarter, just to do a crowdfunding event, take one
of those games, and remaster it.'

And so I was talking to him, 'Hey, so, what else is out there that we could do
this with?' And he was like, 'How about Wizardry?' And I said, 'Yeah, but
where's that been?' He said, 'Well, I can make an introduction to you to Rob and
Norm.' And when I approached them, it seemed that they were thinking the same
thing. I don't know if it's one of those things where you're just thinking the
same thing at the same time, but the three of us got together and said, 'Well,
great, if we're gonna do this, let's talk about what developers might make
sense.'




Time Extension: Picking up that, why did you decide to go with Digital Eclipse
as the developer for the project? Why did they stand out to you?

Norman: When we first got together with Justin, we were interviewing three,
maybe four, development teams. And that's when we were introduced in more detail
to Digital Eclipse. After researching the products they did, what they were
doing with Atari 50: The Anniversary Celebration, plus some of their other games
that really aren't role-playing game-based at all, they were the front runner in
terms of everything we were looking for to understand really what a remaster of
Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord would need. And that was the biggest
challenge because a lot of companies don't understand the history of the product
and they seem to have gotten it; they understood it.

Robert: [To be honest], Digital Eclipse really wasn't on our radars at the time,
but when Justin introduced me to Mike Mika [Digital Eclipse's studio head], I
was completely enthralled with Mike's knowledge and we just hit it off. And then
we saw the studio and we saw that this was the place to be. He also had access
to voice actors out of Hollywood — really professional ones — and there were
other ways too that we could leverage his contacts to really improve the
remaster. These were all the reasons why I settled on Digital Eclipse. And I
think they've done a great job with the title.



There's still stuff that we want to do, but Rome wasn't built in a day, as they
say, right?

Time Extension: A big thing we'd love to know more about is the situation with
the IP and how the series was brought back. From an outsider's perspective, the
rights seem to be quite confusing, with various new games being developed under
the Wizardry branding in Japan (like the mobile game Wizardry Variants Daphne).
We're wondering, what is the current situation regarding the rights? Who owns
what? And were there any complications in terms of, releasing this game in Japan
with that in mind?

Norman: Well, in my mind, the rights are very clear and simple. In others, maybe
not so much. Wizardry 1 through 5 have always been owned by the Siroteks, in one
form or another. And back in 2000, we sold off the Wizardry mark and the rights
to 6, 7, and 8. Now the company we sold them to is no longer around, and they
flipped it. And it's gone through, I guess, several flips ever since. And the
current owners of those rights is, I think, [a Japanese company called] DreCom.


Bailey: Yeah, so where the rights thing comes in [with this] is just making sure
it's all clean, right? Like all that stuff. The base game may have come to the
US but what's been done since then. So I would say it was a considerable effort
to get that done. Rights-wise, it was owned by the Siroteks and Andrew Greenberg
and Robert Woodhead — I'm sure you know that history. Greenberg no longer has
any rights to classic Wizardry. I actually own Robert Woodhead's rights to the
classic Wizardry 1 through 5. So between Norm, Robert, and I, we have all those
copyrights.


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Time Extension: Were there any specific dos and don'ts that you personally had
for the project? What were the guiding principles with this remaster?

Bailey: Yeah, I think one thing that we wanted to do with the remaster is we
wanted to make it authentic and get all the original parties kind of involved
back again from when this became a new success. One thing we asked people was,
'Hey, what do you remember about Wizardry?' A lot of people in the US and Europe
would remember either the MS-DOS or Apple II version, but we went to Japan and
everybody said the NES or SNES version was what they remembered, right? So one
thing about the Japanese release that we paid a lot of attention to was it's
still pretty big over there and it never kind of dropped off.

> One thing we asked people was, 'Hey, what do you remember about Wizardry?' A
> lot of people in the US and Europe would remember either the MS-DOS or Apple
> II version, but we went to Japan and everybody said the NES, SNES version was
> what they remembered, right?

So we got Jun Suemi, who had done the original art for the NES game. We actually
contacted the Haneda Estate and they did the 'We Love Wizardry' soundtrack. We
got them involved. We got this guy named Benny-san (Benny Matsuyama), who wrote
some of the strategy guides that actually filled out some lore. Like one cool
little thing that happened is if you've noticed in some of the other versions of
Wizardry, as they went through, the higher-level ninjas ended up being women.
And so that was something that wasn't explained, right, in the lore of Wizardry.
And so Benny-san actually went and explained why the higher-level assassins were
women. And he did that with a lot of stuff. So he kind of became this person who
wrote some of what people in the Japanese market think of as the deep lore of
Wizardry. So that was important to us to get all those people back together.



Another thing we definitely wanted to do was do this ability to play the
original game and have everything new built on top of that. So that's that
window inside. And so, one of the things the team wanted to do was take that and
kind of retain the original difficulty of it. So it felt like Wizardry. And then
layer on top of that, all of these quality-of-life improvements so that, people
who remember it from the beginning can play it almost exactly as it was, right,
with the same difficulty, the same bugs, same warts and all, right?

Because some people remember these bugs and they remember them with fondness.
Like, for instance, when we first put it out there in early access, people said,
'We attacked the frost giants' and there used to be a bug in how the experience
was calculated when you killed a frost giant and so you'd get a lot more
experience and you didn't get that because we fixed it. And people asked,
'What's wrong?' So we actually had to go back and make it so you could undo some
of our fixes.

And then ID#9 was another famous bug, right? And we had to figure out — what you
do with it? It was something where the dev team had to go back and look at these
things and look at what are bugs and what are not bugs. And then, take in mind
the people who had that original experience and people playing it potentially
for the first time ever and making sure their experience isn't something where
they have an immediate rage quit based on the fact that how you play games has
changed since Wizardry launched.

Time Extension: Yeah, we have the same question for Norm and Robert. What was
the communication between yourselves and Digital Eclipse in terms of, what you
envisioned for the project?



Norman: I think Justin did a really good job recapping the discussions and the
attitude. What we wanted was the quality of life improvements to make the game
more — let's say — playable for the current users compared to users back in the
'80s, where the challenge and the frustration of Wizardry was an exciting part
for them.

I think users have evolved past that. They don't really want to put up with the
very demanding elements of the first product. So the quality of life
improvements definitely solve that. So I like the idea that we discussed to be
able to play the game in its original form and with all its difficulty, and then
be able to toggle switches to bring the playability more in line with what the
current user may want. They can actually customize the game to bring it to that
level.

So that [solves] two problems. We want to bring in a new audience, but we also
want to keep our old audience happy. And by putting all these switches in, we
believe Digital Eclipse actually created a far more versatile and replayable
game. You can toggle these switches here and there and all of a sudden it plays
differently and with its own unique challenges. And in that sense, I think it's
an absolute stunner of a product and well beyond what was originally envisioned
in our inaugural phone calls. And then the other elements were, you know, bring
up the graphics, bring up the imaging to more of today's current standards.

Wizardry was never a leader in graphics or you know, graphic interface eye
candy. It never had that. So having more of that in the game was great, but it
was never paramount. That was a 'Let's do this. Let's make it better. Let's make
it prettier. Let's make it more playable.' But you don't need to make this game
a stellar graphic game, because that's not what Wizardry is known for.



Robert: So, I'm going to have to pay tribute to an Antiquarian in a quote that
will answer your question directly. So, the guy that came up with this - and he
nailed it — his name is Jimmy Maher. Basically what he wrote was, and I'll read
this to you: "For all its legendary difficulties, Wizardry requires no deductive
or inductive brilliance or leaps of logic or illogic reasoning. It rewards
patience and willingness to experiment and to learn from mistakes, attention to
detail, and a dedication to doing things the right way." Couldn't have said it
any better. So my recommendation and Norm's recommendation to Mike Mika and the
development crew at Digital Eclipse was to stick to that ideology while
embellishing it in ways that were necessary to bring it up to today's standards.

Obviously we're not just republishing an old game, we're remastering it. So,
Mike and the development team were instrumental in all of these quality-of-life
improvements. And there's a whole list of them. And I give Mike Mika and the
development team that credit.

Subscribe to Time Extension on YouTube2.2k

I've learned over my 40 years in the industry, you don't legislate what you want
to get something beautiful. You have to encourage, you have to be sensitive to
the people developing it and their skill sets and you have to let them flex
their muscles. And after they flex their muscles, if they screw it up, then you
do something about it. But you're not going to be upfront about squashing ideas
because it doesn't create the right spirit and atmosphere to really develop a
great product. And a lot of people cannot figure that out. They're just
inexperienced. And it takes years to figure it out. It takes years to know
what's the right balance. How do you provide the right guidance at the right
time? So, I felt Mike also had that knack, and we needed somebody who knew how
to do that for the benefit of the development team, and that was it. I'm sorry
about the long-winded answer, but it's a simple question with a complicated
answer.



Time Extension: In terms of the art direction for this game, it must have been
difficult with so many people having different memories about different versions
of the game to come up with an idea for art style that encompasses all of that.
We're wondering in terms of the conversations that happened with Digital
Eclipse, how was that sort of decided upon?

Bailey: Yeah, I mean, Digital Eclipse has this slogan of making the game you
remember, not the game as it actually was. And so in this case, it was, what's
in people's minds? How will they remember Wizardry when they go back? And what
was happening in their minds at the time? So the art director's name is Nick
Bruty. And he played Wizardry; he was a fan. The whole team had played it. I
think that was one thing that Robert Norman and I looked at and were like, 'This
is a big plus for this team'. And so what he did is he liked these pulp-fiction
novels — the fantasy covers from the '80s and the D&D covers — so he said,
'That's the inspiration'. And he wanted to make sure that the game almost looked
like that prevalent fantasy art of the time.

And so he did a bunch of art tests to try to capture that. And then at one point
in the development, he made this werewolf staying in this cave with this red fog
coming out. And we looked at it and we said, 'Okay, based on that, go forward
with it'.


Time Extension: Just to kind of put a button on everything, from playing the
game, we were surprised at how timeless it still feels. And it's the same thing
that we experienced with the Bard's Tale remaster. It's just amazing that
there's something out there now that if someone says they want to try out
Wizardry, it's easy to point them to it and there are all these different
options available. We don't know whether you guys have any closing thoughts on
that.



Bailey: One thing was, as you mentioned, Bard's Tale. I think Bard's Tale, Might
& Magic, Wizardry, they just had a soul to them. During Bard's Tale, when they
were going back and remastering it, they had a back and forth about "What is it
that keeps people coming back to it?" And I think, similar to Bard's Tale,
Wizardry just had a kind of soul to it.

And I don't know. One of the things I thought was kind of cool is that you could
actually take your characters in Wizardry — and I think this was not planned —
and push them over to Bard's Tale and Ultima. And it was funny. I remember
talking to Robert and Norm about this because, to me, that was such a cool
feature and it was the first cross-promotional opportunity, right? But there
were so many firsts with this game. There was the first premium boxed product. I
mean, Robert and Norm are the central architects for that. The first pre-order
incentive. You heard about that from Boston Apple Fest, right? And you start
looking at all these things, as well as how it helped set the grounds for things
like Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, and even Demon's Souls. You go into the maze
and if your characters die, you can start another party, go down, and get their
remains, right? And the creator of Demon's Soul heralded some of his design
choices and the difficulty of that game back to Wizardry.



Time Extension: Thank you again for your time Justin, Norman, and Robert. We
appreciate you taking the time to answer our questions.


RELATED ARTICLES


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OF AN ICONIC GAME

Nintendo LifeTrebor SUX


NEWS WIZARDRY: PROVING GROUNDS OF THE MAD OVERLORD RETURNS AFTER 20 YEARS,
THANKS TO DIGITAL ECLIPSE

3D update available now via Early Access


NEWS VIRTUAL BOY 'WIZARDRY' GAME REVEALED IN PREVIOUSLY UNSEEN PITCH DOCUMENT

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Related Games
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See Also
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FEATURE FORGET THE OLYMPICS, EXTRA LIFE CAFÉ IS THE BEST REASON TO VISIT PARIS

Prev




THE MAKING OF MYSTICAL NINJA STARRING GOEMON, KONAMI'S UNDERRATED N64 CLASSIC

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About Jack Yarwood

Hailing from Manchester, Jack has a particular fondness for point-and-click
adventure games. In the past, he’s written about lost games from studios like
Sony Manchester, Genepool Software, and DMA Design, and has made a habit of
debunking video game rumours.

 * Author Profile
 * Twitter/X
 * Reply



Comments 6

 * 1
 * MARl0
 * Mon 12th Aug 2024

I had a ton of fun playing through this earlier this year.

 * 1
 * Reply

 * 2
 * Soupbones
 * Mon 12th Aug 2024

Still need to pick this one up!

 * 1
 * Reply

 * 3
 * Azuris
 * Mon 12th Aug 2024

Oh! Customizable Options! That is great.

 * 0
 * Reply

 * 4
 * jesse_dylan
 * Tue 13th Aug 2024

I wish they’d do the gold box d&d games. Or ultima.

 * 0
 * Reply

 * 5
 * jojobar
 * Thu 15th Aug 2024

I still want to buy the game but I want it physically... I hope for a limited
run or a iam8bit release

 * 0
 * Reply

 * 6
 * GravyThief
 * Mon 26th Aug 2024

Wow. Someone really LIKES saying the word LIKE don’t they? Quick search on my
phone… it appears over 50 times 🤣

I had to, like, stop reading after a bit. It was, like, doing my head in.

 * 0
 * Reply

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