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Paradox Forum Menu Forum list Trending Latest New posts Paradox Store Mods Wiki Launcher Support PDXCON Remixed Paradox Forum * Forums New posts All threads Latest threads New posts Trending threads -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Trending Search forums * Developer Diaries * What's new New posts New threadmarks Latest activity SEARCH Everywhere Threads This forum This thread Search titles only By: Search Advanced search… Everywhere Threads This forum This thread Search titles only By: Search Advanced… Log in Register Home Trending Latest threads New posts Developer diaries * Forums * Unreleased Games * Victoria 3 * Thread starter lachek * Start date Yesterday at 14:59 Jump to latest Follow Reply Menu Install the app Install JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Previous dev diary Show only dev responses VICTORIA 3 - DEV DIARY #24 - NAVIES AND ADMIRALS * Thread starter lachek * Start date Yesterday at 14:59 Happy Thursday and welcome back to our series of development diaries on warfare in Victoria 3! Today we talk about navies, and how we intend to make them as strategically important to winning wars as they were in history. This diary builds on the warfare vision presented in The Concept of War and many of the core mechanics presented in Fronts and Generals, so ensure those are fresh in your mind before reading on! Your ability to sustain an empire depends, to a large extent, on how well you can compete on the high seas. This is the era of truly global trade, which also meant countries were highly susceptible to disruption of that trade - and the higher they climb, the harder they may fall. In Victoria 3, maintaining a powerful blue-water navy is a large but necessary expense if you wish to ensure the integrity of your markets, overseas colonies, and trade routes during war. And even while at peace, a magnificent fleet can provide your nation with substantial Prestige! Our design intent for naval gameplay in Victoria 3 is that it should serve as a strategic precision instrument in conflicts between seafaring nations. The sea is not another “front” in a war. The province-based moving Front system works well to represent conflicts over territory but would be nonsensical at sea, where no nation can be said to meaningfully “control” an enormous stretch of ocean. Instead, Admirals and their Flotillas are deployed to meet specific strategic objectives to disrupt the enemy’s military operations or economy, or defend against such attempts by the enemy. A powerful navy can never win you the war on its own, but if deployed correctly under the right circumstances it can be the “ace in the hole” that lets you outsmart even a foe that’s superior on paper. A clipper departing Luanda in the Portuguese colonial state of North Angola, representing the colony’s connection to the Market Capital in Lisbon. As with land warfare and Generals, you control your navy through your Admirals. Generals and Admirals share many similarities. Both are provided with military resources originating from buildings in the Strategic Region they call home. The amount of resources they get depend on their Rank, which you can grant via promotions to reward your favorite commanders. Their Rank also lends Political Strength / Clout to the character’s favored Interest Group. Furthermore, both Generals and Admirals get Traits that affect both themselves and those Officers and Servicemen serving underneath them. Most importantly, just like Generals are your interface to command your armies, Admirals are the interface to your navies. Admirals are given Orders, which they attempt to carry out to the best of their ability using the Flotillas they have been assigned. These Orders consist of: Intercept any hostile navies around a certain Strategic Region’s friendly coastlines while keeping your fleets stationed close to shore Patrol any shipping lanes between the Admiral’s home region and a remote region, intercepting any hostile navies encountered Convoy Raid at a particular point at sea to damage enemy shipping lanes Naval Invasion to establish a beachhead and a frontline on enemy soil, by escorting and protecting a General’s land forces in a joint operation While it has not yet made its way into the game, we also want to add a fifth Order - Blockade - to disable enemy ports and prevent hostile forces from crossing straits. An artistic mockup of an Admiral in the Navy panel. Admiral Ruiz and his 10 Flotillas are currently on Interception duty in the Iberia HQ, ensuring no Naval Invasions or Blockades endanger the Spanish home front. Convoy Raid and Naval Invasion are aggressive orders intended to hurt the enemy in different ways, while Intercept and Patrol are defensive orders that counter the other two. But to really understand how these work we have to start by talking about Shipping Lanes and the Supply Network. Shipping Lanes are facilitated by vessels called Convoys, which are an output of Port buildings. These are created automatically whenever it’s necessary to move goods and/or people overseas. The three main reasons this happens are due to naval Trade Routes between non-adjacent markets, remote States connecting to their Market through a Port, and Battalions sent to frontlines that can only be supplied by ship. When a player is about to take an action that establishes such a shipping lane they are warned of how many new Convoys would be required for this action, which is based on the size of the route or the army supplied. Shipping Lanes are always established via the shortest possible path, as defined by the number of nodes in the naval network it passes through. A zoomed-out view of the North Angolan shoreline above, showing the main route ships travel off the coast of southwest Africa. The yellow pin indicates this path is part of Portugal’s Supply Network. The sum total of a country’s Shipping Lanes determine the extent of its Supply Network, and the total cost in Convoys of that network compared to the Convoy output by Ports determine the overall strength of that network. That is to say, if the total Shipping Lane cost is 500 Convoys but Ports provide only 400, the Supply Network as a whole will operate at only 80% efficiency. This impacts all Shipping Lanes, causing less trade to flow between the markets than would be optimal and impacting the supply and morale of overseas troops. Admirals assigned to Convoy Raid a given sea node will surreptitiously try to sink any enemy transports that pass through. In effect this will do damage over time to the affected Shipping Lanes, causing both an overall drop in efficiency of the affected countries’ Supply Networks but also a larger, local drop in efficiency of the damaged Shipping Lanes. As a result, by parking your fleet in a highly trafficked part of the ocean you could do a lot of damage to your enemy’s trade or even directly impact the amount of military supplies they’re able to send to their frontlines. A very visually un-polished view of part of Portugal’s supply network, stretching from the Azores around the African continent all the way to Portuguese Bombay. In the lower-right corner we see an additional tendril going east, which is a trade route importing Porcelain from China. Admirals assigned to Patrol a certain stretch of their Supply Network will eventually be able to detect and engage the raiding navy, causing a naval battle to ensue which will not only sink ships but also send the losing side back to base for repairs for some time. Admirals assigned to Intercept all nodes along a coastline are able to do the same to any raiders along the coast. Convoy Raiding right outside a major entry/exit port, such as in the English Channel, therefore has the chance to seriously disrupt a large number of shipping lanes but also put you at greater risk of detection and interception than if you’re raiding transatlantic shipping lanes on the deep seas. The composition of your navy can also greatly impact how this plays out: a fleet with an accompaniment of Submarines can deal more damage before being intercepted, while a fleet of Monitors has an easier time intercepting raiders but may be more easily sunk if faced down by a more powerful navy. Because the distance Admirals must patrol plays a difference, there is an inherent asymmetry to Convoy Raiding and Patrol orders. Since a chain is only as strong as its weakest link the damage done to a shipping lane by raiders is the same whether it stretches across 1 node or 10, whereas 10x as many Flotillas are needed to protect the longer route as effectively as the shorter. Extremely unfinished breakdown of what is currently happening in the Macaronesian Sea. Look at all those juicy raiding targets! Naval Invasion is an Order you give to provide naval support for a General’s landing on an enemy coastline. The size of the fleet determines two things: one, how great is the chance that you’ll be able to defeat an opponent’s intercepting fleet, and two, how many Battalions will you be able to successfully land. Even if the enemy has no defensive fleet at all, a naval invasion with a very small fleet might land too weak of an initial force to withstand the enemy’s counter-offense before the rest of the army can arrive. Since Naval Invasion is a one-time Order, once it has been completed it automatically turns into a Patrol Order to protect the shipping lane supplying the new Front. Concept art of early Ship-of-the-Line and late-game Dreadnought class vessels Navies are made up of Flotillas, which are constructed and maintained by Naval Bases. Naturally these can only be built on coastlines, where they consume military vessels such as Man-o-Wars or Ironclads constructed in Shipyards. Like Barracks they also employ Servicemen and Officers Pop, and depending on your navy configuration may need to consume other military goods as well (such as Ammunition and Radios) in order to keep in fighting condition. Flotillas differ from Battalions in how long it takes to create and upgrade them; constructing a competitive navy is not something you can begin considering when your rival has already started saber-rattling. Another difference between Battalions and Flotillas is that your country’s navy is always considered to be in fully active service. In peacetime Generals can keep their troops on low alert, limiting their consumption and expenses. Once war breaks out, Generals can be selectively mobilized to only deploy the troops necessary. Admirals on the other hand have exorbitant needs and expenses even while at peace, so sizing and tech’ing your navy appropriately is an important consideration for imperialists on a tight budget. On the other hand, navies provide you with considerable Power Projection which confers substantial Prestige onto your country. Having a world-class navy is not strictly a requirement to be a Great Power, particularly if you’re a large self-sustaining terrestrial empire, but it definitely helps you both gain and hold onto the title. Artistic mockup of the Navy panel with Flotillas expanded. Admiral Alvarez de Toledo commands 20 Flotillas of Man-o-Wars on a Patrol mission to secure an important Spanish shipping lane. Before we wrap up for this week, I want to say a few words about the lack of an order to just “seek out and destroy enemy forces”. In Victoria 3, your commanders - Generals as well as Admirals - are given strategic objectives which they use their manpower and resources to carry out as best they can. If in the process they get into conflict with the enemy’s forces (as they almost certainly will at some point) a battle will ensue. The outcome of that battle determines which direction the war proceeds in. The intent of this is to remove the need to babysit your commanders. To illustrate this, assume we did have an order to seek and destroy. The optimal choice would then be to assign this order only to the strongest commander, fight the eventual battle, then revoke this order and give it to another commander while the first one recuperates, and so on. With an order like “advance front” instead, the General’s intention is simply to capture territory as efficiently as possible, ideally while avoiding enemy interference. If it’s impossible to avoid the enemy, the imperative is to try to be intercepted by as weak of an enemy force as possible. Meanwhile the intent behind “defend front” is the opposite: prevent enemy incursions by defending it in the places where the enemy might advance, bringing to bear as powerful a force as possible. Similarly at sea, “convoy raiding” is about maximizing shipping lane damage while avoiding detection, while “patrol” is about minimizing damage to convoys by seeking out and destroying those enemy ships attacking them - not to sink ships for its own sake. Depending on how the war is developing your priorities or overall strategy might certainly shift, causing you to change the orders you’ve assigned or make changes in your ranks to distribute resources differently. But our design intent is that this should only be necessary because your strategy is evolving, not to counter enemy movements or try to minmax your way to victory. This is an especially important consideration for the naval part of the warfare mechanics. Naval (and aerial) warfare in strategy games commonly face the design challenge of extreme mobility options due to the lack of obstacles to movement. Usually some form of Fog of War and interception-radius mechanics is employed to counteract turtling behavior. The AI also often has to be forced to make mistakes to not become too good at dodging or intercepting the player in this environment. Even with Victoria 3’s more strategic-level decision making, the freedom of “movement” the sea provides would make a system where being in/avoiding being in the same location as the enemy so as to start/not start a battle extremely micro-heavy, annoying, and highly unfair to either human or AI players depending on implementation. So instead, in Victoria 3, you tell your Admirals what their overall priorities should be for the war and then they try to do that, using the resources they’ve been allocated, only coming into conflict when they become aware of an enemy Admiral with an order that clashes with their own. I hope that gives you a good idea of what to expect from the naval mechanics in Victoria 3. Next week we will wrap up this first batch of diaries on the military system by going through the many economic impacts of warfare in Victoria 3. Until then! Last edited: 36 minutes ago * 25 * 5 * 3 * 2 Reactions: Reply Report Written by LACHEK Victoria 3 Lead Designer 35 Badges * Messages 304 * Reaction score 21.057 * 1 * 2 Next 1 of 2 GO TO PAGE Go Next Last Sort by date Sort by votes COMMISSAR ROACH RECRUIT Community Ambassador 94 Badges May 27, 2011 8 507 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Yesterday at 15:03 * * Add bookmark * #2 This comment is reserved by the Community Team for gathering Dev Responses in, for ease of reading. * 1 Reactions: Reply Report REPUBLIC OF MERCURY GENERAL 44 Badges Apr 16, 2015 1.905 4.189 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 34 minutes ago * * Add bookmark * #3 > So instead, in Victoria 3, you tell your Admirals what their overall > priorities should be for the war and then they try to do that, using the > resources they’ve been allocated, only coming into conflict when they become > aware of an enemy Admiral with an order that clashes with their own. > Click to expand... So, if two powers at war have their navies both raiding convoys in the same area, will they engage with each other? Their orders don't technically conflict, but it seems at odds with the precedent set for British admirals that they could face the death penalty for failing to engage with the enemy Toggle signature "Gonna fly this baguette to the moon somehow!" * 2 * 1 * 1 Reactions: Reply Report DARTH KATJI SECOND LIEUTENANT 67 Badges Nov 30, 2017 168 410 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 33 minutes ago * * Add bookmark * #4 1) Would it be possible to add in some manual control to the routes that shippings lanes take? Sometimes the shortest route isn't the route I'm going to want them to take, especially given potentially hostile countries near or on that route. I'd like the option to force my convoys to take a longer but safer route. 2) Would it be possible to add in some way of manually allocating convoys to shipping lanes when you don't have enough? Having all lanes affected equally seems like a reasonable default setting, but if I have a convoy shortage, I'm almost definitely going to have certain shipping lanes I want to prioritize over others. 3) Will there be, I'm not sure what the correct terminology is, basically re-supply stations for navies? For example, if I'm Japan, can I have naval bases on various Pacific islands to extend my supply range and offer alternate supply lines in case one or more get impacted by enemy fleets? Other than those three questions, I like how the naval system sounds. The selection of orders seem pretty reasonable. I think a generic "seek and destroy" order doesn't completely make sense. Intercept and Patrol effectively accomplish the same thing, within specific areas. At least, within a naval context. * 2 * 1 Reactions: Reply Report DARTH KATJI SECOND LIEUTENANT 67 Badges Nov 30, 2017 168 410 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 32 minutes ago * * Add bookmark * #5 > Republic of Mercury said: > So, if two powers have their navies both raiding convoys in the same area, > will they engage with each other? Their orders don't technically conflict, but > it seems at odds with the precedent set for British admirals that they could > face the death penalty for failing to engage with the enemy > Click to expand... Hmm, I would think that would only happen if they were openly hostile with each other? Reply Report HOTISINA PRIVATE 73 Badges Aug 9, 2020 18 123 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 31 minutes ago * * Add bookmark * #6 I LOVE NAVIES! It looks even better than that in HOI4! * 2 Reactions: Reply Report V VERNICHTERE LT. GENERAL On Probation 57 Badges Mar 26, 2010 1.473 3.553 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 30 minutes ago * * Add bookmark * #7 The new design is good for the war at sea. The old problem with the Doomstacks is avoided and the war as such is not really changing. You only have to manage relatively few units at all times and there are no "fronts" in that sense. But I can only say that in relation to the sea. This philosophy gets into trouble as soon as it is dragged onto the dry land. I just have to be able to rearrange my front and set new goals. I don't have to be able to do it all the time either. But I need some option. From a German point of view, the campaign of 1914 differs from that of 1916. And yes, there was also a reaction to the enemy. Naval is very fine with such a mechanic * 1 Reactions: Reply Report REPUBLIC OF MERCURY GENERAL 44 Badges Apr 16, 2015 1.905 4.189 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 30 minutes ago * * Add bookmark * #8 > Darth Katji said: > Hmm, I would think that would only happen if they were openly hostile with > each other? > Click to expand... Yeah, I meant if they were at war with each other. Toggle signature "Gonna fly this baguette to the moon somehow!" Reply Report DUARTE COLONEL 67 Badges Aug 7, 2011 934 762 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 30 minutes ago * * Add bookmark * #9 ok so question, what exactly is preventing doomstaking in the naval area? I might have missed it, but it's seems that the only limit is purely logisitcal Reply Report DARKSABER501ST THE WATER MUST FLOW 92 Badges Aug 19, 2009 99 41 steamcommunity.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 29 minutes ago * * Add bookmark * #10 > lachek said: > Another difference between Battalions and Flotillas is that your country’s > navy is always considered to be in fully active service. In peacetime Generals > can keep their troops on low alert, limiting their consumption and expenses. > Once war breaks out, Generals can be selectively mobilized to only deploy the > troops necessary. Admirals on the other hand have exorbitant needs and > expenses even while at peace, so sizing and tech’ing your navy appropriately > is an important consideration for imperialists on a tight budget. > Click to expand... I'm concerned about this one. Maintaining reserve fleets in which ships were kept mothballed was not uncommon in this era among the most major powers. I think there needs to be a mechanic to cover this so that nations have the capacity to build and reserve ships at reduced cost (particularly older ones), and pull from civilian pops to crew them in wartime. There can probably be a cap on it as a function of available buildings like Shipyards. Last edited: 22 minutes ago Toggle signature ----------------------- Per Ardua, Ad Astra Culture: American Religion: Lutheran (Catholic Heresy) Education: Skilled Tactician (Engineer, design is pretty tactical) Traits: Quick, Game Master, Architect, Temperate, Charitable, Slothful, Kind, Honest, Proud, Gregarious, Content, Zealous, Pilgrim (Rome), Sympathy for [Everyone], Adventurer * 1 Reactions: Reply Report BASS12 SECOND LIEUTENANT 47 Badges Aug 10, 2020 118 990 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 29 minutes ago * * Add bookmark * #11 Are the nodes similar to the trade ones in EU4? Are they fixed or do they change? Reply Report REVSHAWN LT. GENERAL 81 Badges Mar 5, 2010 1.285 961 www.catscratchreader.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 28 minutes ago * * Add bookmark * #12 Will you be able to perform naval invasions the same way if you already share a border with the nation? That’s one of my major questions, to solve the Louisiana invasion during the Civil War problem. New Orleans and Baton Rouge must fall Reply Report LACHEK VICTORIA 3 LEAD DESIGNER 35 Badges Feb 19, 2013 304 21.057 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 26 minutes ago * * Add bookmark * #13 > Republic of Mercury said: > So, if two powers have their navies both raiding convoys in the same area, > will they engage with each other? Their orders don't technically conflict, but > it seems at odds with the precedent set for British admirals that they could > face the death penalty for failing to engage with the enemy > Click to expand... Their Orders do not conflict, so no battle will transpire. Similarly, if all Generals on a Front are set to Defend that Front, no battles will break out. This is totally legit, since either side might be choosing these Orders because they know they have the inferior force and just want to ensure they do as much damage as possible without risking their men in an attack. * 5 * 2 * 1 Reactions: Reply Report PED_LORD CORPORAL 20 Badges May 10, 2018 37 247 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 26 minutes ago * * Add bookmark * #14 about naval invasions: 1- how do generals start a naval invasion? do i order them to prepare for transportation in a coastal region? 2- do i controll the naval invasion target on where the front will begin or is it up to the general to decide? * 1 Reactions: Reply Report WIZZINGTON GAME DIRECTOR (VICTORIA 3) Moderator 41 Badges Nov 15, 2007 12.155 116.325 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 25 minutes ago * * Add bookmark * #15 > Revshawn said: > Will you be able to perform naval invasions the same way if you already share > a border with the nation? That’s one of my major questions, to solve the > Louisiana invasion during the Civil War problem. New Orleans and Baton Rouge > must fall > Click to expand... Yes. Toggle signature For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. Follow me on twitter for regular tidbits about the projects I'm working on. Vicky 3 confirmed! * 6 * 2 Reactions: Reply Report H HYPOS1 RECRUIT 80 Badges Oct 31, 2014 4 7 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 25 minutes ago * * Add bookmark * #16 Will technologies directly upgrade your ships, or do ships need to be replaced/refitted to take advantage of new technologies? Clarification edit: Does changing the production method take the ships from that port out of commission or require a long time to provide benefits? Last edited: 18 minutes ago * 1 Reactions: Reply Report REPUBLIC OF MERCURY GENERAL 44 Badges Apr 16, 2015 1.905 4.189 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 24 minutes ago * * Add bookmark * #17 > lachek said: > Their Orders do not conflict, so no battle will transpire. Similarly, if all > Generals on a Front are set to Defend that Front, no battles will break out. > This is totally legit, since either side might be choosing these Orders > because they know they have the inferior force and just want to ensure they do > as much damage as possible without risking their men in an attack. > Click to expand... Fair enough. What would your thoughts be on a combined raid/patrol order; I.e. "Attack enemy supplies, and also engage any enemy fleets you encounter"? Toggle signature "Gonna fly this baguette to the moon somehow!" Reply Report J JERSEYLEO RECRUIT 19 Badges Jun 17, 2021 7 20 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 23 minutes ago * * Add bookmark * #18 Will shipyard sizes be relevant? One of the limiting factors for many countries and their navies was their shipbuilding capacities. Several nations got their ships from UK shipbuilders because of it. Reply Report DRAGONLUKE MAJOR 36 Badges Jan 27, 2016 690 2.549 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 22 minutes ago * * Add bookmark * #19 uuuuh...cool concept art Reply Report WIZZINGTON GAME DIRECTOR (VICTORIA 3) Moderator 41 Badges Nov 15, 2007 12.155 116.325 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 22 minutes ago * * Add bookmark * #20 > HYPOs1 said: > Will technologies directly upgrade your ships, or do ships need to be > replaced/refitted to take advantage of new technologies? > Click to expand... It's not an instant or painless process: you'll need to secure new input goods, switch to the new ship type, and then suffer major disruption for some time to the naval bases/warships that are being upgraded. Replacing wooden warships with ironclads isn't done overnight. Toggle signature For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. Follow me on twitter for regular tidbits about the projects I'm working on. Vicky 3 confirmed! * 5 Reactions: Reply Report * 1 * 2 Next 1 of 2 GO TO PAGE Go Next Last Show hidden low quality content You must log in or register to reply here. 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