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TELESCOPIC SIGHT ON F4F-3, F2A

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TELESCOPIC SIGHT ON F4F-3, F2A


TELESCOPIC SIGHT ON F4F-3, F2A

ehgrabot
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Feb 28, 2008#12008-02-28T07:41

Looking for information on the telescopic sight on the early Grumman F4F-3's and
the Brewster F2A's. I don't even know the designation for the
sight. Would appreciate any help with this. Thank you, Edward Grabot
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Jimmaas
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Feb 29, 2008#22008-02-29T04:23

The one carried on the F2A-2 was a "Mark III Model 4" telescopic sight (I assume
the early F4F-3 sight was equivalent). However, Tommy Thomason has
been tracking down info and has reported that the sight was not telescopic, in
that it didn't magnify at all. Why a pilot would be gluing his eye to a
tube in the middle of a combat situation has always puzzled me. The sights used
by dive bombers like the SBD were 3x or so. Anyway, here's some images:







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ehgrabot
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Feb 29, 2008#32008-02-29T05:31

Wow Great Info!
Thanks so much
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Cubdriver
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Feb 29, 2008#42008-02-29T10:42

A "telescope" would be pretty useless as a gunsight, because it would be so hard
to locate a plane in the sky, especially if it were close. As I
understand it, one looks with both eyes open. The unencumbered eye sees the
larger scene (notably any other airplanes), and the eye looking through the tube
sees the crosshairs on the sight. So to the brain, crosshairs have been imposed
upon the airplane seen out there. (Very early heads-up display!)




Do we know that any telescopic sight actually magnified the view? I suppose that
some small magnification might work. Most shooting took place between 100 and
500 yards probably.




The same or similar sight was used by the Japanese army. It would certainly be
more accurate than the ring & post "iron" sight, which depends on
the position of the pilot seated in the cockpit. Unlike a soldier with his cheek
tucked against the stock of his rifle, he's free to move his head and even
torso left and right.
-- Dan Ford

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Feb 29, 2008#52008-02-29T21:20

Dan




As an interesting side note to this




The Luftwaffe ace Adolph Galland on his Bf 109 E-4 had a telescope mounted in a
similar fashion to the F4F/F2A/SBD.




What he used this device for, was not to shoot down his opponent but to give him
self a tactical advantage by being able to see


far into the distance so as to get the drop on his quarry.
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Cubdriver
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Feb 29, 2008#62008-02-29T21:53

Hayabusa pilot with telescopic sight:







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Mar 01, 2008#72008-03-01T17:29

I asked the question on the Usenet newsgroup rec.aviation.military and got this
reply from Alan Dicey:


> I think some were simple tubes, to help the pilot concentrate on the
> sight picture, but at least one, the Aldis sight, was an optical system
> giving 1:1 magnification while projecting the sight picture at infinity
> - the pilot didn't have to accomodate to keep it in focus and it didn't
> move around if the pilots head moved (provided his eye stayed within the
> exit pupil of the sight).  Its operation is similar to a modern HUD,
> except that a HUD projects the sight reticule into the pilot's field of
> view wheras the Aldis had the sight engraved on the lenses.
> 
> A brief google has produced the following quotation, lifted from a web
> forum: -
> 
>  From the book by Harry Woodman, Aircraft Armament: The Aeroplane and
> the Gun up to 1918 (AAP London, 1989) ISBN 0-85368-990-3 (Aldis Sight p232):
> _______________________________________
> The Aldis Sight
> In a roughly printed booklet written in 1916 Maj. L.W.B. Rees advocated
> types of sights that would be best suited to air fighting. One was for a
> free gun which involved a rotation arm and there were comments about
> telescopic sights. He considered that the magnification had to be small,
> as the vibration of the machine would interfere with the sight, and that
> the field of vision should be about ten degrees or larger. The eyepiece
> was to be arranged so that the 'full field of fire is obtained when the
> eye is held about a foot away from the telescope; this enables one to
> use goggles or a wind screen. So long as the eye is within the angle
> shown [in a rough sketch] it need not be in the centre line of the
> telescope in order to obtain the full field.'
> (...) some research involving special optical sights had been undertaken
> before the war and this exploratory work continued in the workshops of
> the Aldis Brothers, of Sparkhill, Birmingham. Their first effort was a
> 32in telescopic tube with a graticule engraved on an internal screen; in
> aerial fighting magnification was unnecessary and indeed a drawback.
> After tests at Martlesham in 1915 an improved version of the sight was
> produced which incorporated all the recommendations (...) it was
> approved and the Aldis company was then instructed to commence
> manufacture of the sight against an initial order for 200 items as soon
> as possible.
> The Aldis sight consisted of a metal tube 32in long and 2in in diameter.
> It embodied the priciple of the ring sight and the sighting system was
> in the form of two concentric rings engraved on clear glass screens
> inside the tube which also contained a number of lenses. When the pilot
> looked through the tube the image was neither enlarged nor diminished
> and was always seen with it's centre directly on the axis of the sight
> regardless of the position of the gunner's eye. The rear end was
> protected by a rubber sleeve and eyepiece while a problem which had
> arisen during tests, the fouling of the front lens of the sight by oil
> or smoke, was solved by fitting a protective disc which could be raised
> or lowered by the pilot.
> The secret of the Aldis lay in its series of internal lenses and the
> company always insisted that sights should not be tampered with and had
> to be be returned to the factory in the event of damage or malfunction.
> According to L.W. Sutherland, writing in
> Aces and Kings, the reason for this secrecy was that to prevent fogging
> of the internal lenses certain gases had at the time of manufacture been
> introduced between the lenses at varying temperatures and if an Aldis
> were opened up these gases would disperse. It was claimed that this was
> the reason the Germans never copied the sight dispite the large numbers
> captured. The German pilots nevertheless liked the Aldis and frequently
> fitted it to their machines, the range of optical devices produced by
> German manufacturers during the war notwithstanding.
> The first production Aldis sights were issued to operational units in
> mid-1916 and by the end of the year they were being delivered in large
> numbers for use with the fixed Vickers gun or the overwing Lewis by the
> RFC and the RNAS. The Aldis remained in service with the RAF until the
> late 1930s and the Americans also adopted it, their particular version
> being known as the "Unit Sight"*
> 
> *The Aldis was a collimating sight, that is, it employed lenses which
> transmitted parallel rays of light. The magnification was correctly
> expressed as being 1:1, hence 'unit' or one-to-one magnification.
> 
> Click to expand...

-- Dan Ford

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Mark E Horan
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Mar 09, 2008#82008-03-09T00:30

Gents;




Early "sniper scopes" were simply hollow cylinders to help tjhe eye focus on the
target. Until the end of the 19th century many a marksman still used
that kind of "scope". My understanding from chatting with several pre-war/early
war USN fighter types was that that was the concept behind the
tubular sight (which was what they called it) so I am guessing it did not
actually magnify anything. Now, SBD pilots talked about a "telescopic"
sight. However, as those that know my area of interest and expertise can attest,
the details of gunsights was nothing I focused on in inteviews ...




Mark
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Cubdriver
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Mar 09, 2008#92008-03-09T10:53

Yes, I checked it further and confirmed that 1:1 was no magnification at all.
The "magic" of the sight was that the target was always centered in it,
regardless of where the pilot's eye might be. I don't understand that entirely,
since when I use a telescope I DO have a problem keeping the image
centered. (But that's 15 power, not 1 power!)




I see from Robert Mikesh's book that the Japanese navy used the British Aldis
and the German Oigee sights, both imported and locally manufactured. (He
calls them telescopic.) Magnification1x! -- i.e., none.




"The Oigee telescopic sight had several advantages over the earlier metal ring
and bead sights, including greater eye freedom, primarily along the sight
axis, but also laterally. Bothe the reticle and the target appeared to be in
focus and superimposed at infinity. There was only one aiming element (the
reticle
image) to contend with, in contrast to having to align both ring and bead
sights."




Sights of course were also used for dive bombing, a rather different set of
demands.




The Japanese army used either a French Chretien or the German Oigee, apparently
interchangably. This Type 89 sight was mounted in the Ki-43 Hayabusa, though
the navy had gone to a reflecting sight for the equivalent A6M Zero.
-- Dan Ford

for my email address, click here


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| Dan Ford's Books 
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alwaysintrouble
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Mar 18, 2010#102010-03-18T11:52

> Cubdriver wrote:Yes, I checked it further and confirmed that 1:1 was no
> magnification at all. The "magic" of the sight was that the target was always
> centered in it,
> regardless of where the pilot's eye might be. I don't understand that
> entirely, since when I use a telescope I DO have a problem keeping the image
> centered. (But that's 15 power, not 1 power!)

It depends on where the last inner lens before the one before the eye is placed.
In a "normal" magnifying sight, that lens can be placed deeper/anywhere.
The Aldis sight has something of a TV screen; no matter what angle you look at
it, the TV presenter always "looks" at you, and that is because the image
creating lens is just under the convex lens.
And that is required because as a pilot in a shaking plane you don't have the
time and ease to put your eye close to the sight.
From any point in the cockpit you must be able to see a sight circle with which
you decide to fire if the enemy plane shows up in the circle.
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